The Ainur and their physical forms - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Neithan · 12-23-2004, 01:58 PM

All right obloquy since you are such and expert on the subject then what is your opinion on the chain and the physical vs. spiritual power discussion. Why was Sauron, who was not yet bound to his hröa not able to abandon it to escape Huan without consequences.

obloquy · 12-23-2004, 02:14 PM

Because when these beings physically "arrest" one another, there's a lot more going on than is visible. There's a whole "spiritual plane" where the real struggle occurs. Sauron's spirit was vying with Huan's; Melkor's with Tulkas'. When Melkor was bound, he was bound by a power that had mastered him, whether there was a physical manifestation of the "chain" or not.

Neithan · 12-23-2004, 02:28 PM

So then their spirits have physical strength too? Because Tulkas definately won by using physical strength. But as long as their physical strength mattered in the "spiritual plane" then I can see your point.

obloquy · 12-23-2004, 03:41 PM

I'm actually having a bit of trouble answering your questions on this because I do not have access to my books. I am rusty, and cannot recall where Melkor's capture falls in the timeline. I am tempted, though, to say that Melkor had already been significantly weakened in spirit (which was directly connected to his increasing incarnation), and was perhaps now not so impervious as he once was.

Spirits do not have physical strength: that is a contradiction. However, they can affect the physical realm when they are arrayed with a carnate form. The potency of their spirit then translates to the strength of their corporeal manifestation. Basically, ealar are a Consciousness and a Will: their "power" is the degree to which they can impose their will or compell/affect the world around them, whether it is spiritual or physical. In Tolkien's world, when an Incarnate dies, it is fairly ultimate, although they are not entirely wiped from existence. Where that remnant of spirit goes is a different topic, but it is effectively impotent. When an eala is clothed with a raiment, it maintains its eala nature while having a physical presence. When an eala has become incarnate--and this happens by degrees--due to indulgence in activities meant for Incarnates, that connection to the spiritual realm is dampened and eventually their existence on that plane is minimal, as that of the Children is. Elves are, as indicated by Gandalf's elucidation of what Frodo witnessed at the Ford, apparently more at a balance between the two planes than Men. I have postulated elsewhere that involuntary incarnation (Balrogs, Morgoth, Sauron), while bringing similar limitations and drawbacks, seems to be more irrevocably binding than voluntary incarnation (Istari, Melian) and perhaps this is due to the grace of the Powers, which is not extended to those who have trapped themselves through their own selfish indulgence.

Neithan · 12-23-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

The potency of their spirit then translates to the strength of their corporeal manifestation.

I had assumed this was the case as well, until this quote came to my attention.

Quote:

Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas ... for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless.

Tulkas is clearly portrayed as having the greatest physical prowess, but when Tolkien lists the Valar "in due order" he puts Tulkas last.
In fact as this quote is what prompted me to start this thread in the first place I probably should have posted it earlier.

Quote:

I'm actually having a bit of trouble answering your questions on this because I do not have access to my books. I am rusty, and cannot recall where Melkor's capture falls in the timeline. I am tempted, though, to say that Melkor had already been significantly weakened in spirit (which was directly connected to his increasing incarnation), and was perhaps now not so impervious as he once was.

He was captured the first time just after the Elves awakened. After he was released he could still assume fair form, and I think he still had most of his power. At any rate he was definately not incarnate yet. And he was still referred to as "the mightest of all the dwellers in Eä" well after this happened.

obloquy · 12-23-2004, 04:34 PM

Are you sure that "in due order" doesn't refer to the order in which they were given stations as Valar? Tolkien in one place makes reference to Manwe and Melkor being "coeval", so he apparently attributes weight to the relative age of a Vala. Tulkas is the "youngest" Vala, but he certainly wasn't the least powerful of them all.

Tolkien wrote that all of the Valar combined could not master Melkor in his original state. Either Tolkien didn't include Tulkas in this estimation, or Melkor had already become greatly diminished by the time Tulkas captured him. If the former is true and not the latter, then we have to attribute the greatest power of all the remaining Valar to Tulkas. Remember that much of the dissemination of Melkor's power was in the creation/corruption of the created world, so he had already become diminished from his original greatness. This is why Tolkien refers to all of Arda as "Morgoth's Ring".

Neithan · 12-24-2004, 10:32 AM

All right, I concede the point, Tulkas was greatest of the Valar in terms of "power" and that is why he could take the greatest hröa. I will point out though that Tulkas is not listed among the 8 chiefs of the Valar, and I don't think that it is because he came late (he could have been added to the list, just as Melkor was taken off it). I think that his low rank had more to do with his lack of knowledge and wisdom.
So then is Huan's spirit greater than Sauron's? Somehow I don't think so, my theory then is that Huan won the fight because it was his fate to live and to fight the other wolf (Melians power could not keep Beren out of Doriath because of his fate).

12-23-2004, 01:58 PM	#1
Neithan Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 126	All right obloquy since you are such and expert on the subject then what is your opinion on the chain and the physical vs. spiritual power discussion. Why was Sauron, who was not yet bound to his hröa not able to abandon it to escape Huan without consequences. __________________ If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau

12-23-2004, 02:28 PM	#3
Neithan Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 126	So then their spirits have physical strength too? Because Tulkas definately won by using physical strength. But as long as their physical strength mattered in the "spiritual plane" then I can see your point. __________________ If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau

12-24-2004, 10:32 AM	#7
Neithan Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 126	All right, I concede the point, Tulkas was greatest of the Valar in terms of "power" and that is why he could take the greatest hröa. I will point out though that Tulkas is not listed among the 8 chiefs of the Valar, and I don't think that it is because he came late (he could have been added to the list, just as Melkor was taken off it). I think that his low rank had more to do with his lack of knowledge and wisdom. So then is Huan's spirit greater than Sauron's? Somehow I don't think so, my theory then is that Huan won the fight because it was his fate to live and to fight the other wolf (Melians power could not keep Beren out of Doriath because of his fate). __________________ If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau

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12-23-2004, 02:14 PM	#2
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Because when these beings physically "arrest" one another, there's a lot more going on than is visible. There's a whole "spiritual plane" where the real struggle occurs. Sauron's spirit was vying with Huan's; Melkor's with Tulkas'. When Melkor was bound, he was bound by a power that had mastered him, whether there was a physical manifestation of the "chain" or not.

12-23-2004, 03:41 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	I'm actually having a bit of trouble answering your questions on this because I do not have access to my books. I am rusty, and cannot recall where Melkor's capture falls in the timeline. I am tempted, though, to say that Melkor had already been significantly weakened in spirit (which was directly connected to his increasing incarnation), and was perhaps now not so impervious as he once was. Spirits do not have physical strength: that is a contradiction. However, they can affect the physical realm when they are arrayed with a carnate form. The potency of their spirit then translates to the strength of their corporeal manifestation. Basically, ealar are a Consciousness and a Will: their "power" is the degree to which they can impose their will or compell/affect the world around them, whether it is spiritual or physical. In Tolkien's world, when an Incarnate dies, it is fairly ultimate, although they are not entirely wiped from existence. Where that remnant of spirit goes is a different topic, but it is effectively impotent. When an eala is clothed with a raiment, it maintains its eala nature while having a physical presence. When an eala has become incarnate--and this happens by degrees--due to indulgence in activities meant for Incarnates, that connection to the spiritual realm is dampened and eventually their existence on that plane is minimal, as that of the Children is. Elves are, as indicated by Gandalf's elucidation of what Frodo witnessed at the Ford, apparently more at a balance between the two planes than Men. I have postulated elsewhere that involuntary incarnation (Balrogs, Morgoth, Sauron), while bringing similar limitations and drawbacks, seems to be more irrevocably binding than voluntary incarnation (Istari, Melian) and perhaps this is due to the grace of the Powers, which is not extended to those who have trapped themselves through their own selfish indulgence.

12-23-2004, 04:34 PM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Are you sure that "in due order" doesn't refer to the order in which they were given stations as Valar? Tolkien in one place makes reference to Manwe and Melkor being "coeval", so he apparently attributes weight to the relative age of a Vala. Tulkas is the "youngest" Vala, but he certainly wasn't the least powerful of them all. Tolkien wrote that all of the Valar combined could not master Melkor in his original state. Either Tolkien didn't include Tulkas in this estimation, or Melkor had already become greatly diminished by the time Tulkas captured him. If the former is true and not the latter, then we have to attribute the greatest power of all the remaining Valar to Tulkas. Remember that much of the dissemination of Melkor's power was in the creation/corruption of the created world, so he had already become diminished from his original greatness. This is why Tolkien refers to all of Arda as "Morgoth's Ring".