Elves and Ringwraiths

[Gurthang]

Does anyone besides me find it rather ironic that the men who accepted the rings from Sauron became more powerful than elves?

Now, it is generally assumed that on a normal day elves are more powerful than men. Not necessarily in strength, but in will, magic, skills, and vitality. But, the men who were consumed by the nine were different. They almost gained more from their 'transformation' than they lost.

One perk is that they became invisible. This would come in handy for eavesdropping , but it also creates a good fear tactic and would be useful in combat. They became semi-immortal. They could not die, and their spirits would always remain even if they were defeated, so they never could truly be defeated.

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf. They were seduced by their rings(which is bad), but ended up more powerful than before(which is good for them, bad for everyone else). Which brings me back to the beginning. Doesn't that seem like its backwards?

[Boromir88]

No one could combat all 9 at once, but one-on-one, a lot of people could contend with them. Heck, Aragorn took 5 of them, anymore he might have been defeated though. I believe Gandalf combatted all 9 on Weathertop, but he had to retreat. In a fight, no one could take on all 9. One-on-one, I feel as a different story, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan, Gildor would probably mop the floor. But, these are some of the most powerful elves on Middle-earth (well Gildor left, but he was once there). To an average elf (which I would classify even below Legolas who I think is above-average) then ya the Wraiths would beat them. But a man can beat an average elf.

[Gurthang]

So the average man could beat the average elf one-on-one? I'd always thought of the Eldar as a superior race, being the first-born and all. But maybe that reputation comes from their countless years fighting Morgoth before men showed up.

But Boromir brings up a good point. The wringwraiths relied on their numbers quite often when they battled. At least when facing one opponent, or a small group of weaker ones, such as the hobbits. In big battles, like outside Minas Tirith, they spread out more to take out as many of the grunt soldiers as possible. Which makes sense. They didn't want to confront Gandalf right at the beginning, after all.

[Fingolfin II]

Gandalf said that Aragorn and Glorfindel together couldn't defeat the Nazgul on foot. As Boromir said, it is doubtful whether anyone not wielding the Ring can defeat all Nine by themselves. However, if anyone could do it, I'd back Gandalf the White- he was capable of fighting the Nazgul when he was Gandalf the Grey and he could defeat (albeit, he might not be able to kill- the prophecy) the Witch-King in the form of Gandalf the White.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing. Turin beat Saeros and Beren defeated Celegorm and Curufin, though I'd certainly say that Elves would probably be the superior fighting race, as they are in lore, music, etc.

Remember, the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Eonwe and the Eldar, as well as discovering a lot for themselves, so my bet is that any Elf from the Blessed Realm (and even the 'average' Elf) has a greater chance of defeating a man. However, there are exceptions. It's hard to say who'd win a fight between the 'average' Man and the 'average' Elf, because although Men are said to be stronger, we all know there are many factors in a fight rather than just brute strength- i.e. stamina, speed, skill, etc. It's like asking who would win a fight between Fingolfin and Hurin, or Gil-Galad and Tuor, or Aragorn and Glorfindel- there's no real telling who would win.

To get back to the original question, I would say yes, the Nazgul are stronger than most Elves as a result of the power instilled in them by Sauron's Nine Rings. However, we have seen that some Elves, such as Glorfindel and even Men - specifically Aragorn and Eowyn - have defeated the Nazgul, whether temporarily or in Eowyn's case, for good. Elves born in the Blessed Realm live both in the Ringwraith and 'normal' world and are said to have a great power against the 'shadows of Men' that are the Nazgul.

However, as I said before, this is an individual case, so therefore sweeping generalisations cannot be made. I acknowledge though that Elves are the 'superior race' in general compared to Men. To me, the Nine Rings put the Ulairi (I'm getting sick of saying 'Nazgul' all the time ) on the same plane as most Elves, though people like Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel could defeat them individually. Whether they could defeat them in whole group remains to be seen.

EDIT: The Nazgul have an advantage over Men that they can travel unseen and also the advantage of fear. After all, this is said to be the King of the Nazgul's main weapon (aside from that beastly mace- urgh!).

[davem]

But the Rings don't make them more powerful in themselves - they become enslaved to Sauron & its basically his power which they manifest, not their own. Its more a case, I think, of Sauron being more powerful than the Elves - yet even he was no undefeatable. He was beaten by Elendil & Gil-galad, even when he had possession of the Ring.

The power thing is a difficult issue, as this 'power' is more a negative thing than a positive one. It is a 'power' to negate, consume & destroy, not to create & build. The power of the High Elves could drive it back - hence Glorfindel could drive back the Nine simply by approaching them. The Light of Aman was in his face: he had seen the Two Trees before they were destroyed. The Darkness could not stand against that so the Nazgul were driven back.

I think that what we're dealing with is not a contest of strength - whether the Elves are stronger that the Nazgul in the sense of one human being more powerful than another - but of different 'forces' creation vs destruction, life versus not death but 'unlife', Light versus 'unkight'. Or 'presence', being, versus 'absence', unbeing

[drigel]

If there is anything to compare, its possibly with the unseen side of things. Elves can walk both in the seen and the unseen world. Mabye thats what is implied here: that while a mighty enough elf could destroy the physical rainment of a Nazgul, the undead spirit could never be destroyed while Sauron existed. Hence the "Nazgul can never be defeated" quote. An elf could clearly see that. The unhoused Nazgul spirit would simply recloak itself (in time) in another physical shell...?..?

[Frodo Baggins]

Now here is an interesting topic. a bit off topic, but there were some men, such as Beren and Turin, that were, or seemed to be, physically stronger than the "Average" Elf.

As for the Ulairi, they work with Sauron's power mostly. Truthfully I'm not sure an average, everyday elf could take them on. Remember how they all shoved their fingers in thear ears when Gandalf spoke the black speech.

Here's an intersting key. It says that Morgoth and Sauron feard Varda above all the other Valar. Aragorn says to Frodo after the attack upon Amon Sul, "More deady to him (the witch-king) was the name of Elbereth." The Ringwraiths got really scared when they heard that name.

Aragorn didn't really defeat the Wraiths, he just temporarily chased them off. Still, the Hobbits themselves attempted to fight them, Frodo even stabbed one of them, so apparently even Little Ones can put up a fight. If not for very long.

Now as for elves. Perhaps the average elf could put up a bit of a fight, just as hobbits and rangers/exiled kings. Gandalf said there were few in Rivendell who could ride against the nine. Glorfindel is one. He saw the two trees, and the light of Aman is in his face. Also, he had encountered the Witch-King before in the wars with Angmar earlier in the Third Age. It was there that the Ulairi learned that Glorfindel was scary and not to be messed with. He could very likely mop the floor with at least one or two.

Galadriel as well. She saw the Trees before they were destroyed and I think lived partly in Aman (at least in her thoughts) while in MIddle Earth. And she is a fighter, they didnt call her Man-maiden for nothing.

Gandalf, Olorin, Maia of Lorien. In a sense he is equal to Sauron and above the Ulairi on the power scale. He drove the Witch-King from the gate of Minas Tirith. We don't really know what he did on Weathertop, but I think all nine would likely be too much even for him.

Forgive me but I'm not sure Elrond would be able to take on more than one at a time. Yes he does have Vilya but I'm not sure that would be much help. Also, he was born in Middle-earth, after the destruction of the trees. I doubt he would be in both realms at once, but he may. But then, Eowyn didn thave anything but her sword, her wrath, and a loophole on a porphecy. So who knows?

[Boromir88]

I would give Elrond more credit then that. I know Galadriel, Glorfindel, Gildor, and Cirdan probably all out-rank him, power-wise, or wisdom-wise, but after them I would put Elrond. He also used Vilya to summon the flood.

Your normal elf soldier wouldn't put up too much of a fight against a Wraith. You have to admire Frodo's courage, for stabbing at the wraith, but he didn't put up much of a fight besides stabbing at his feet. But, that was more then the other hobbits, who threw themself to the ground, or in Sam's case shrunk beside Frodo and wimpered. (Don't worry Sam your time will come).

[Mithalwen]

Actually I think Elrond is unlikely to be outranked by anyone by anyone but Galadriel if push came to shove - I think that he is a bit of a special case as Peredhil. Glorfindel is shown as a deputy of Elrond. In HoME, I believe, that there is a is a feeling that the crafts of warrior and healer were incompatible. It is my instinct that Elrond may have renounced warfare after the Last Alliance or that in order to protect Imladris withg Vilya he had to remain there. In either case it seems that once Glorfindel had returned he became the military leader of the forces of Rivendell.

Elrond may not have been born in Valinor but look at his ancestry - and it seems power is passed through blood in Middle Earth. He was Gil Galad's heir, child of Earendil and Elwing, grandson of Tuor and Idril, Great grandson of Luthien and Beren and Turgon and Huor.... as herald of Gil-galad he would have been in the thick of it when Sauron was cast -down, it was his craft that swept the Nazgul away .... a match for most of the Nazgul in my book.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Did the original point suggest that being enslaved by Sauron was desirable?

[Boromir88]

Mith, Gildor might be pushing it, he is from the house of Finrod, and one of the Exiles. However, you bring up good points about Elrond's lineage.

But I would still put Glorfindel above Elrond for the fact that he slew a balrog, something I'm not sure Elrond could do.

[Frodo Baggins]

Thank you Mith, I totally Forgot about Elrond being related to Melian.

[drigel]

Since the primary weapon of Nazgul was undeath and fear I would submit that, other than the nasty weapondry that they wielded, there would be nothing any elf would be afraid of. But, saying that, I dont think any being (Istari included) had the capability to destroy the Nazgul spirit utterly, given that Sauron was still active, and the ring was still in existance.

[Neithan]

Now, it is generally assumed that on a normal day elves are more powerful than men.

Although Elves do seem to be born with some skills that other races don't have, most of their greatness follows naturally from being immortal. They live longer and so they have more time to learn and practice skills. So if a Man had enough natural skill to compensate for his lack of experience he could still defeat the Elf.

To an average elf (which I would classify even below Legolas who I think is above-average) then ya the Wraiths would beat them.

How do you define an "average Elf". There are different kinds of Elves all distinctly different, so there can not be an average that applies to all of them.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing.

I agree

As for the Ringwraiths they seldom fought anyone directly if they could help it (with the occasional exeption of the Witch King). They preferred to achieve their ends by stealth and deception, sometimes getting others to do their work for them (Bill Ferny). They would not directly attack the Inn at Bree even though few of its inhabitants were likely to stand and fight. They use their powers to strike fear into others and whenever possible they debilitate their enemies and strike when they are defenseless (Dark Breath, Morgul Blade). They are of the darkness and they use it against others, and they hate the light. Glorfindel who had seen the light of the trees, was as much a wielder of light as they were of darkness and so they feared him.

[King of the North]

The "power" given to the nine is not a gift. Once they accepted the rings they were seduced and were bound to the One Ring. Their sole purpose is to find it. That is the only reason why they have power. Always they feel the presence of the ring, they yearn for it. They are slaves to Sauron's will. Never, will they stop hunting for it. Being a nazgul is not as good as u would like to believe.

[Boromir88]

Neithan, I would classify an average elf as right around Legolas' ability. Not Noldor elves, they are some of the more powerful elves. So just your basic elf Silvan or Sindarin elf warrior.

Obviously someone could hold a different view .

[drigel]

Being a Noldor in itself wouldnt neccessarily translate into being a powerfull warrior. I would say the Eldar in general would apply as more powerfull. Granted, most Eldar in ME at this time were Noldo, and most of these had seen many years of war. By LOTR, there werent a lot of Eldar around ME, but there would be no comparison IMO with any other type elf.

But, as warrior prowess goes, I would submit that there were at least as many (if not more) Sindarin elves who I would rate as high (at least on the warrior skills rating).

Silvan/Avari - eh .... probably quite a few who were way up there on the "ranger" type skills: hunters, trackers etc., that could translate very well into warrior type skill sets. But yea for the most part - better at partying than fighting

Against a Ringwraith, any elf who didnt bring an Eldar to the fight would be sorely tasked.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, we cannot judge, whether a Nazgul is more powerful as an elf, because their strengths are lying in total other fields.
As Neithan pointed out, the Nazgul's dreadful weapon was the fear. They aren't really good warriors. Aragorn (as it was altready posted serveral times) banished five of them at Weathertop. He didn't kill them, because they are really difficult to kill (at least the body). But not very difficult to banish.
The Nazgul fear themselves a lot. They fear flowing water, fire, "Elbereth", their master ;-) ...
Banishing them is not the problem, if the person, who tries, have enough bravery to fight against them. There is the crux.
It is necessary for fighting against them, that the person have got a strong spirit, strong will power, like Aragorn have it obviously. He can fight against them and banish them. Obviously Glorfindel have these attributes, too.
Elves seems to have an advantage over Men anyway. Men are mostly more weak. A good example, where we can see the weakness is the Ring.
So, when we are talking about who is more powerful: Elf or Nazgul, then I would say, that a Nazgul is a more powerful weapon against not strongminded enemies (i.e. Battle at the Pelennor), but Elves are generally better warriors and could defeat (or banish) the Nazgul, when they are strongminded enough.

[Boromir88]

Nothing against you Brandybuck, but the problem with that argument is this...

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf.

That is the subject that is up to in debate. Your examples, which are valid, all deal with some of the most powerful people people in middle-earth. Aragorn, for a man, is one of the more powerful men, and better swordsmen. The thing that's in debate, is that an elf is usually more powerful then a man. But, in the 9 wraiths it seems like their rings enhanced their ability, making them stronger then the elves.

In some cases, Elrond, Aragorn, Glorfindel, Gandalf, are able to drive away the nazgul, but these are again some of the most powerful people on middle-earth. Where a wraith would mop the floor with one of you every day elves.

I think when comparing them, the nazgul are stronger then MOST elves, would be fair to say. Certainly not all elves, because as shown, they can be beaten, however it takes people like Glorfindel or Gandalf to do that, and they are no slouches.

Elf or Nazgul, then I would say, that a Nazgul is a more powerful weapon against not strongminded enemies (i.e. Battle at the Pelennor), but Elves are generally better warriors and could defeat (or banish) the Nazgul, when they are strongminded enough.

I agree, and let's look at the people who are able to do that. The four mentioned above. Imrahil and his knights were able to withstand the shriek, now would they be able to defeat the nazgul? We don't have any word of them squaring off, so no one knows. Since, they are able to withstand the shriek though, and not cower in fear, one could assume that they could "banish" the nazgul.

[Gurthang]

Although, despite being able to overcome the fear that the Nazgul create, you still must have suitable skill to defeat them in combat. They have been around for a long time, and I don't doubt they have gained plenty of experience using weapons. So there are really two stages of battle, overcoming the fear, and then overcoming the physical.

So whereas Glorfindel was able to fend them off with just the light of his presence, Gandalf, Elrond, Imrahil, Aragorn, and the others who had not seen the Trees would actually have to push them back physically(Elrond used a river, Aragorn his sword and voice). So it also does matter how much skill you have, not just being able to master your fear.

[drigel]

Although, despite being able to overcome the fear that the Nazgul create, you still must have suitable skill to defeat them in combat.

Thats what I would see the advantage elves would have over men. Like Legolas at the Paths of the Dead, the fear of undead things is absent in the immortal elves. Not to say that elves fear nothing, but in this case they have the upper hand on the fear thing, IMO

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nothing against you Brandybuck, but the problem with that argument is this...

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf.

I must admit, that I forgot to mention, that my post was an answer of the following statement of drigel:

Originally Posted by drigel

Being a Noldor in itself wouldnt neccessarily translate into being a powerfull warrior. I would say the Eldar in general would apply as more powerfull. Granted, most Eldar in ME at this time were Noldo, and most of these had seen many years of war. By LOTR, there werent a lot of Eldar around ME, but there would be no comparison IMO with any other type elf.

I wanted to express, that we can't mess the Eldar by the qualities as warrior, when comparing them with the Nazgul, because in the direct duell, it is more important that they are strongminded.
Sorry, that I expressed that in that mistakable way.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Some silly statements, but an good thread

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course the Nine Rings bestowed increased power on the Men who took them. That is rather the point of the Rings. They wouldn't have taken them otherwise. At first, they were able to use this power to further their own desires and so gain political power, wealth etc. Ultimately, however, the Nine Rings bound them to Sauron and, as davem has pointed out, their enhanced power was directed solely towards furthering his will.

Whether or not they became more powerful than Elves is not really the point. The fact is that they became Nazgul and that surely is not a desirable state of being, however powerful they became. Given their time again, with the benefit of hindsight, do you think that they would have made the same choices?

Good Day. My first post:

No, if the Nine Kings had known the outcome of these "gifts" they would have surely rejected the Rings. If we have a look at what these Men were initially looking for, we could enumerate might, wealth, prestige, longer life, wider realms, etc. Given that they, for a short time, were able to achieve these results with the help of the rings we have to confront these profane benefits with the price they have to pay for all that.

Losing one´s physical body, becoming an obedient servant of Sauron (who is indeed not famous for fair rewards), ever yearning for the One, living a restless life that is (similar to gollum´s) more "stretched" than prolonged, fearing the light of Aman in all its embodiments and worst of all not knowing to what end one, as a wraith, will come cannot demonstrate a king´s wishlist for the next decades. Where do their spirits go after they are defeated? Are they still allowed to leave Arda and lose the burden of being part of it?
The fate of men after their fall is not declared to the Valar, and even the most evil men will surely remember the power of Eru that they are subject to and reflect the deeds, either with shame or pride, before they die.

I guess the light of Aman can be more terrifying than Sauron´s devices of torture when all is over.

Men cannot escape fear, for it is part of both sides, good and evil. Being empowered by Sauron´s Rings does not add to their worthiness of their lives nor to the fulfillment of their human desires. Yet (I love this sentence in the Sil. altough it is not used in this context.) it is for them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfillment of their own being.

This issue strongly reminds me of Goethe´s Dr. Faustus but this would be too much off-topic.

Anyway, think twice before accept gifts from fair looking strangers

[Osse]

Please excuse the fact that I skew from the power of the Nazgul over the Elves in this one post...

Reading through the discussion on the Elvish capability to endure the fear of the undead, it seems to me that my own thoughts of the fear created by the Nazgul differ somewhat from some of yours.

I do not believe that the fear the Nine produce is the same as that of the spirits of fallen men - though spirits of fallen men they actually are. It is, as Tolkien outlines it, especially through the siege of the pelennor, a fear that debilitates - that drives any thought of fight from the mind of the subject. It's a crushing, morale quelling fear, a fear that there is no hope. It, I feel is a fear that is straight from the hatred of the Dark Lord - of destruction, perversion and death. I do not believe this to be the same fear that was awakened in those who came close to the shades of men in LOTR. I always saw the fear of the dead, as it was in ME, as being a very personal fear - a fear for your own safety, a fear of the unknown, and it was personalized in the case of men because it was so close to home - it affected them most because it was part of them, if that makes any sense.

The fear of the dead didn't affect Elves because it was alien to them - they were immortal, or rather the Halls of Mandos were known to them - it was rooted in their culture.

Whereas Men had no idea what the afterlife was for them - what the Doom of Man really entailed, or whether they themselves would fetch up as a wretched spirit such as the ones tormenting their fears. This of course was all subliminal - but it added, I believe to the fear felt by Men in the presence of their own kind's spirits. It was a personal fear. Typically, the Men of ME were scared or unsure of death - the Elves were not.

The fear of the Nazgul on the other hand could be seen as impersonal - it's about destruction - cares not who or what you are, but will enslave and destroy you, as the Nine themselves are enslaved and destroyed.

I guess this brings up the idea of the fear linked to the fate of the nine kings- is that why Men seem to have less sucess in weathering the fear? Does the fact that the Nine are really of their kindred affect them?

Your thoughts are appreciated!

Regards,
Ossë

[drigel]

osse - good points!
I would think an average elf's fear was concerned with the Nazgul's accutrements: poisoned / spellbound blades, etc. An Eldar's concern would be this too, as well as his/her abitlities or powers in the unseen arena vs. the particular Nazgul's.

As for men's basis in fear - I think all the points you brought up all add to the fear. It would seem to me that the combo you described (unsure about death and destruction) best summs it up.

[elfearz1]

I guess it depends on your point of view. I don't think they were more powerful. In some aspects it would seem they were, but in many ways they weren't. As soon as the ring was destroyed they were too so all their "power" in middle-earth in the end amounted to nothing. The elves are immortal and therefore have the better end of the deal in my opinion.

[Lhundulinwen]

I'm sorry, this is probably totally not what you meant, but here goes-

The average man and the average elf were probably pretty equal. But how many strictly average elves are there in LOTR? All the ones we get to know very much about are great in some way. Legolas was a prince, remember.

BUT- with the prophecy and a WOMAN killing the witch king, doesn't it seem that women, or at least Eowyn were greater than a man? Eowyn was of high birth, but she was the one who finally killed one of the nine. Not Gandalf, not Aragorn, not Eomer, not even Legolas. She got the job done. By fate, happenstance, or whatever, she was the one who killed him. Personally, I think that is one of the best parts of the book!

A woman, not a man, might be greater than an elf. There were no girl Nazgul, after all. Kings fell, not Queens.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lhundulinwen

There were no girl Nazgul, after all. Kings fell, not Queens.

Do we know that for sure?

[Gurthang]

That's a really good point Lhundulinwen.

I guess I should have mentioned that when I was saying man, I was meaning the human race. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Which does bring up a good point. Some of the women in ME are more powerful than the men. Galandriel is a good example, I'd consider her one of the most powerful beings in the books. But let's not get into a discussion about one gender or the other specifically. I don't want this to become an arguement over if there is a dominant sex. (BTW, I don't think any of the Nazgul were women. Didn't someone say something about 'nine kings of men', or am I mixing book and movie?)

Originally posted by Lhundulinwen
A woman, not a man, might be greater than an elf.

I don't know that this makes much sense. If you're being gender specific about the humans, then you should be with the elves, too. Which really brings us back to the previous discussion. One-on-one, would a man be superior to an elf (or a women superior to a she-elf)? And then what would the outcome be if it were a Nazgul rather than a man?

It makes a little more sense to go with the elf having the upper hand on the man. The elf generally has much more time to develope combat skills, and their race has been around much longer than the human race, so they would have a larger range of knowledge and skills. That alone gives them a pretty big advantage, so they would get my vote.

But the Nazgul have that same advantage, too. And considering there are probably more 'dark-elves' in ME, a Nazgul would not shy away initially. After these equalizers, a Ringwraith would have the advantage. The power they derive from their ring would give them a huge boost. So I think that the Nazgul would easily overpower an everyday elf.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

BTW, I don't think any of the Nazgul were women. Didn't someone say something about 'nine kings of men', or am I mixing book and movie?

In LotR, Gandalf says:

Nine he gave to mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

In the Silmarillion, it is said:

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerors, and warriors of old.

Neither quote precludes one or more of the original holders of the Nine being women. The capitalised 'Men' could denote either sex, while the warriors or sorcerors referenced in the second quote could have been female.

[Neithan]

BUT- with the prophecy and a WOMAN killing the witch king, doesn't it seem that women, or at least Eowyn were greater than a man?

Not really, as pointed out earlier there definitely were female characters that were greater than most males; Galadriel, Luthien, and so on. But Eowyn was not that impressive, in fact she was quite weak. I think that Tolkien was making several different points by having the Witch King die in this manner.

First, that the weak can sometimes make the biggest difference.

Second, that no matter how great you are, you can not escape your fate.

Third, that you should not base decisions on incomplete information. Hearing the prophesy, everyone assumed that the Witch King would be killed by a great Elf Lord or by Gandalf, and so he let his gaurd down when fighting these "lesser beings" and was killed by a women and a hobbit.

All of these lessons can be found elsewhere in Tolkiens stories. The first is the main idea behind The Lord of the Rings. The second can be found when Eru tells Melkor that even Melkor's secret thoughts have their source in him. The third is found in the Mirror of Galadriel and the Palantiri.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by davem

The power thing is a difficult issue, as this 'power' is more a negative thing than a positive one. It is a 'power' to negate, consume & destroy, not to create & build.

This "negative" power was the reward of the Nazgul for their gullibility ( ). Their greatest weapon was fear, and their purpose is to kill and destroy as Sauron commands, which is always tied up with their mission of retrieving the Ring.

The Elves - Elrond and Galadriel, specifically - were, on the other hand, given the power to restore and rebuild through the Elven Rings.

In this viewpoint, there is no sense comparing Elves and Ringwraiths. They are given entirely different powers. These we cannot compare.

As for physical strength, which seems to be the main idea in this thread, some are right in saying that Elves can stand up against the Nazgul. They can overcome fear, and strength in battle to reckon with. But if ever they were matched up against the Ringwraiths, I doubt they would be able to wipe them off the face of the earth. Their existence is tied with Sauron's and only through his defeat can they also be defeated. With exception to the Witch-King. We all know what happened to him.

[Neithan]

In this viewpoint, there is no sense comparing Elves and Ringwraiths. They are given entirely different powers. These we cannot compare.

True. In fact, I would say they are opposites. Because of this it is hard to say who would win a fight, it depends on many factors, including the time of day (Ringwraiths are strongest at night, weakest at noon).

[Gurthang]

Maybe Tolkien was trying to make a point with these opposite powers: that the power to build up is greater than the power to destroy.

Look at the rings themselves. If you say they were completely opposite, then they should counter-balance each other. The Elven Rings are three, but the Nazgul's are obviously nine. This would mean that Sauron had to make three 'negative' rings to each one of the more powerful elven rings.

This could also elude to the power of good being a greater force than the power of evil, even though evil seems to way outnumber the good. As in the case of Mordor vs. Gondor/Rohan.

[Neithan]

This would mean that Sauron had to make three 'negative' rings to each one of the more powerful elven rings.

There are no completely "negative" Rings. All were made by the Elven smiths (most with Sauron's help). But in beginning none were evil. The Three had a strong tendancy to good because Sauron never touched them. The Nine (and the Seven) had a tendancy towards evil since Sauron had gained control over them, the Dwarves proved harder to ensnare though.

This could also elude to the power of good being a greater force than the power of evil, even though evil seems to way outnumber the good. As in the case of Mordor vs. Gondor/Rohan.

Yeah, good point.

[Gurthang]

There are no completely "negative" Rings.

True, I was speaking in the sense that they were more geared for destruction after the nine attained them.

All were made by the Elven smiths (most with Sauron's help).

Oh yes, my mistake. Thanks for correcting my error, Neithan. But there was one ring that was pretty much negative: The One Ring.

[Neithan]

But there was one ring that was pretty much negative: The One Ring.

My bad, so one completely negative ring then.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

Gandalf said that Aragorn and Glorfindel together couldn't defeat the Nazgul on foot. As Boromir said, it is doubtful whether anyone not wielding the Ring can defeat all Nine by themselves. However, if anyone could do it, I'd back Gandalf the White- he was capable of fighting the Nazgul when he was Gandalf the Grey and he could defeat (albeit, he might not be able to kill- the prophecy) the Witch-King in the form of Gandalf the White.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing. Turin beat Saeros and Beren defeated Celegorm and Curufin, though I'd certainly say that Elves would probably be the superior fighting race, as they are in lore, music, etc.

Remember, the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Eonwe and the Eldar, as well as discovering a lot for themselves, so my bet is that any Elf from the Blessed Realm (and even the 'average' Elf) has a greater chance of defeating a man. However, there are exceptions. It's hard to say who'd win a fight between the 'average' Man and the 'average' Elf, because although Men are said to be stronger, we all know there are many factors in a fight rather than just brute strength- i.e. stamina, speed, skill, etc. It's like asking who would win a fight between Fingolfin and Hurin, or Gil-Galad and Tuor, or Aragorn and Glorfindel- there's no real telling who would win.

To get back to the original question, I would say yes, the Nazgul are stronger than most Elves as a result of the power instilled in them by Sauron's Nine Rings. However, we have seen that some Elves, such as Glorfindel and even Men - specifically Aragorn and Eowyn - have defeated the Nazgul, whether temporarily or in Eowyn's case, for good. Elves born in the Blessed Realm live both in the Ringwraith and 'normal' world and are said to have a great power against the 'shadows of Men' that are the Nazgul.

However, as I said before, this is an individual case, so therefore sweeping generalisations cannot be made. I acknowledge though that Elves are the 'superior race' in general compared to Men. To me, the Nine Rings put the Ulairi (I'm getting sick of saying 'Nazgul' all the time ) on the same plane as most Elves, though people like Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel could defeat them individually. Whether they could defeat them in whole group remains to be seen.

EDIT: The Nazgul have an advantage over Men that they can travel unseen and also the advantage of fear. After all, this is said to be the King of the Nazgul's main weapon (aside from that beastly mace- urgh!).

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.