Elves and Ringwraiths

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, we cannot judge, whether a Nazgul is more powerful as an elf, because their strengths are lying in total other fields.
As Neithan pointed out, the Nazgul's dreadful weapon was the fear. They aren't really good warriors. Aragorn (as it was altready posted serveral times) banished five of them at Weathertop. He didn't kill them, because they are really difficult to kill (at least the body). But not very difficult to banish.
The Nazgul fear themselves a lot. They fear flowing water, fire, "Elbereth", their master ;-) ...
Banishing them is not the problem, if the person, who tries, have enough bravery to fight against them. There is the crux.
It is necessary for fighting against them, that the person have got a strong spirit, strong will power, like Aragorn have it obviously. He can fight against them and banish them. Obviously Glorfindel have these attributes, too.
Elves seems to have an advantage over Men anyway. Men are mostly more weak. A good example, where we can see the weakness is the Ring.
So, when we are talking about who is more powerful: Elf or Nazgul, then I would say, that a Nazgul is a more powerful weapon against not strongminded enemies (i.e. Battle at the Pelennor), but Elves are generally better warriors and could defeat (or banish) the Nazgul, when they are strongminded enough.

[Boromir88]

Nothing against you Brandybuck, but the problem with that argument is this...

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf.

That is the subject that is up to in debate. Your examples, which are valid, all deal with some of the most powerful people people in middle-earth. Aragorn, for a man, is one of the more powerful men, and better swordsmen. The thing that's in debate, is that an elf is usually more powerful then a man. But, in the 9 wraiths it seems like their rings enhanced their ability, making them stronger then the elves.

In some cases, Elrond, Aragorn, Glorfindel, Gandalf, are able to drive away the nazgul, but these are again some of the most powerful people on middle-earth. Where a wraith would mop the floor with one of you every day elves.

I think when comparing them, the nazgul are stronger then MOST elves, would be fair to say. Certainly not all elves, because as shown, they can be beaten, however it takes people like Glorfindel or Gandalf to do that, and they are no slouches.

Elf or Nazgul, then I would say, that a Nazgul is a more powerful weapon against not strongminded enemies (i.e. Battle at the Pelennor), but Elves are generally better warriors and could defeat (or banish) the Nazgul, when they are strongminded enough.

I agree, and let's look at the people who are able to do that. The four mentioned above. Imrahil and his knights were able to withstand the shriek, now would they be able to defeat the nazgul? We don't have any word of them squaring off, so no one knows. Since, they are able to withstand the shriek though, and not cower in fear, one could assume that they could "banish" the nazgul.

[Gurthang]

Although, despite being able to overcome the fear that the Nazgul create, you still must have suitable skill to defeat them in combat. They have been around for a long time, and I don't doubt they have gained plenty of experience using weapons. So there are really two stages of battle, overcoming the fear, and then overcoming the physical.

So whereas Glorfindel was able to fend them off with just the light of his presence, Gandalf, Elrond, Imrahil, Aragorn, and the others who had not seen the Trees would actually have to push them back physically(Elrond used a river, Aragorn his sword and voice). So it also does matter how much skill you have, not just being able to master your fear.

[drigel]

Although, despite being able to overcome the fear that the Nazgul create, you still must have suitable skill to defeat them in combat.

Thats what I would see the advantage elves would have over men. Like Legolas at the Paths of the Dead, the fear of undead things is absent in the immortal elves. Not to say that elves fear nothing, but in this case they have the upper hand on the fear thing, IMO

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nothing against you Brandybuck, but the problem with that argument is this...

Due to these changes, it seems to me that the Nazgul became more powerful than the average elf.

I must admit, that I forgot to mention, that my post was an answer of the following statement of drigel:

Originally Posted by drigel

Being a Noldor in itself wouldnt neccessarily translate into being a powerfull warrior. I would say the Eldar in general would apply as more powerfull. Granted, most Eldar in ME at this time were Noldo, and most of these had seen many years of war. By LOTR, there werent a lot of Eldar around ME, but there would be no comparison IMO with any other type elf.

I wanted to express, that we can't mess the Eldar by the qualities as warrior, when comparing them with the Nazgul, because in the direct duell, it is more important that they are strongminded.
Sorry, that I expressed that in that mistakable way.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Some silly statements, but an good thread

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course the Nine Rings bestowed increased power on the Men who took them. That is rather the point of the Rings. They wouldn't have taken them otherwise. At first, they were able to use this power to further their own desires and so gain political power, wealth etc. Ultimately, however, the Nine Rings bound them to Sauron and, as davem has pointed out, their enhanced power was directed solely towards furthering his will.

Whether or not they became more powerful than Elves is not really the point. The fact is that they became Nazgul and that surely is not a desirable state of being, however powerful they became. Given their time again, with the benefit of hindsight, do you think that they would have made the same choices?

Good Day. My first post:

No, if the Nine Kings had known the outcome of these "gifts" they would have surely rejected the Rings. If we have a look at what these Men were initially looking for, we could enumerate might, wealth, prestige, longer life, wider realms, etc. Given that they, for a short time, were able to achieve these results with the help of the rings we have to confront these profane benefits with the price they have to pay for all that.

Losing one´s physical body, becoming an obedient servant of Sauron (who is indeed not famous for fair rewards), ever yearning for the One, living a restless life that is (similar to gollum´s) more "stretched" than prolonged, fearing the light of Aman in all its embodiments and worst of all not knowing to what end one, as a wraith, will come cannot demonstrate a king´s wishlist for the next decades. Where do their spirits go after they are defeated? Are they still allowed to leave Arda and lose the burden of being part of it?
The fate of men after their fall is not declared to the Valar, and even the most evil men will surely remember the power of Eru that they are subject to and reflect the deeds, either with shame or pride, before they die.

I guess the light of Aman can be more terrifying than Sauron´s devices of torture when all is over.

Men cannot escape fear, for it is part of both sides, good and evil. Being empowered by Sauron´s Rings does not add to their worthiness of their lives nor to the fulfillment of their human desires. Yet (I love this sentence in the Sil. altough it is not used in this context.) it is for them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfillment of their own being.

This issue strongly reminds me of Goethe´s Dr. Faustus but this would be too much off-topic.

Anyway, think twice before accept gifts from fair looking strangers

[Osse]

Please excuse the fact that I skew from the power of the Nazgul over the Elves in this one post...

Reading through the discussion on the Elvish capability to endure the fear of the undead, it seems to me that my own thoughts of the fear created by the Nazgul differ somewhat from some of yours.

I do not believe that the fear the Nine produce is the same as that of the spirits of fallen men - though spirits of fallen men they actually are. It is, as Tolkien outlines it, especially through the siege of the pelennor, a fear that debilitates - that drives any thought of fight from the mind of the subject. It's a crushing, morale quelling fear, a fear that there is no hope. It, I feel is a fear that is straight from the hatred of the Dark Lord - of destruction, perversion and death. I do not believe this to be the same fear that was awakened in those who came close to the shades of men in LOTR. I always saw the fear of the dead, as it was in ME, as being a very personal fear - a fear for your own safety, a fear of the unknown, and it was personalized in the case of men because it was so close to home - it affected them most because it was part of them, if that makes any sense.

The fear of the dead didn't affect Elves because it was alien to them - they were immortal, or rather the Halls of Mandos were known to them - it was rooted in their culture.

Whereas Men had no idea what the afterlife was for them - what the Doom of Man really entailed, or whether they themselves would fetch up as a wretched spirit such as the ones tormenting their fears. This of course was all subliminal - but it added, I believe to the fear felt by Men in the presence of their own kind's spirits. It was a personal fear. Typically, the Men of ME were scared or unsure of death - the Elves were not.

The fear of the Nazgul on the other hand could be seen as impersonal - it's about destruction - cares not who or what you are, but will enslave and destroy you, as the Nine themselves are enslaved and destroyed.

I guess this brings up the idea of the fear linked to the fate of the nine kings- is that why Men seem to have less sucess in weathering the fear? Does the fact that the Nine are really of their kindred affect them?

Your thoughts are appreciated!

Regards,
Ossë