Mythic Unities in The Lord of the Rings

[obloquy]

Phat post. Wish I had something to add to it, but I can't come up with anything at the moment. Oh well, phat post anyway.

[Kuruharan]

Ave LMP.

Mythic fantasy is story that contains the stuff of myth, legend, and fairy tale

Hmm, I fear if this were a real thesis you would probably be battered about the head and shoulders to provide clear definitions of these as part of your background.

I like the way you trace back the changes in languages to help the definition of myth. I would be interested to see more about how in modern times the story requires the presence of archaic languages to give the story the right tone. This is something that was totally unnecessary in the early times of myth and legend.

for Elves are fallen

In what sense do you mean this? I believe Tolkien said that the Elves were not fallen in a theological sense i.e. they do not “sin.” (At least I believe I read that.)

[mark12_30]

Kuruharan, I am not certain (not having Letters with me) but I think it was that elves do not have 'original sin.' In terms of their behavior, however, they are not blameless. Feanor, without sin...?

lmp, this will require much further thought. You are on a similar direction as Flieger, but you are taking a different track. Very intriguing. (Don't get distracted....)

At the moment I feel that finding such re-united splinters would be greatly helped by knowing more about language history (as you do.) For some reason I keep veering off into other authors' works... response TBD.

[Kuruharan]

That does sound about right. My copy of Letters is about 300 miles north of me at the moment. I'll have to look that up when I get home.

EDIT: Disregard the second part of the original post (now deleted). I misread mark's statement.

[littlemanpoet]

Quite right, Kuruharan.

Actually, my purpose in using all three terms (myth, legend, & fairy-tale) is for the sake of inclusivity and overlap. It's quite hard to pin down definitions of myth, especially. Tolkien comes close to defining fairy tale in On Fairy Stories, and I'd have to say that I use that as my basis for the one term. In the P.J. movie, the Galadriel character narrates the opening prologue, and at one point she says that history has turned to legend, and legend to myth. That seems like the usual transition. One of the fundamental aspects of the transition is distance in time. Another seems to be the untrustworthiness of the facts of the story.

However, since Tolkien, a more positive idea of myth has come into usage, especially among those who are fans of Tolkien. It names, for example, the story of Jesus of Nazareth, and all the events leading up to it, a myth, only in this case (as Tolkien - and I - would say), a true myth. What about the Christian story is mythical? Plenty. Incarnation. Miracles. The resurrection from the dead. But in this one case it claim historicity. In the same sense, the LotR story partakes of myth. Many strange things happen that are not explainable scientifically, but the events have an element of historicity that Tolkien intentionally put in the story.

Based on that, here are some definitions, from Webster's:

Myth:

1a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice. 3 a a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence b: an ill-founded belief held uncritically especially by an interested group 4 the whole body of myths.

For our purposes, I would dispense with 3b but incorporate the rest of them. That which I describe in terms of the Christian myth falls under the rubric of 1

Legend:

1 a: a story coming down from the past; especially one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable b: a body of such stories <a place in the legend of the frontier> c: a popular myth of recent origin d: a person or thing that inspires legends

There are other definitions of legend having to do with inscriptions and captions, but we know that's outside our scope. As you see, it's no longer quite historical, but not yet myth.

Fairy-tale:
1. From Webster's:

adj:a characteristic of or suitable to a fairy tale; especially marked by unusual grace or beautynoun:1a narrative of adventures involving fantastic forces and beings (as fairies, wizards, and goblins) - called also fairy story 2: a made-up story usually designed to mislead.

We can dispense with 2. Notice that Webster's seems to be accounting for Tolkien's seminal treatise!

2. From Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories: To summarize, Tolkien said that Webster's 1 is too narrow to cover actual usage, while 2 is hopelessly vast. Tolkien rejects supernatural as causing more problems than it solves. In the end he says,

Most good "fairy-stories" are about the adventures of men in the Perilous Realm or upon its shadowy marches. ... The definition of fairy-story .... does not depend on any definition or historical account of elf or fairy, but upon the nature of Faërie: the Perilous Realm itself, and the air that blows in that country. I will not attempt to define that, nor to describe it directly. It cannot be done.

If the master refused to define fairy-story, who am I to make the attempt? At least he has pointed us in the right direction.

[mark12_30]

I am uncertain if these categories are a bit too sweeping but pneuma drives me towards ideas of similar scope. Although I still suspect I'd do better if I had a clue about languages, nevertheless I will wade in. The worst that can happen is I drown.

Holiness of character is unified with emanating (holy) light. Sometimes seen easily (the elves seen as a shimmer in the woods of the Shire) and sometimes seen by those who have eyes to see, such as Frodo seeing Glorfindel's light; Gandalf seeing Frodo shining a bit in Rivendell; Sam seeing Frodo shining in various instances as they near Mordor; Aragorn shines at need. The shine is an indication of power and holiness and purity of character; they are mythically rejoined by Tolkien. In a different sort of illustration, the light of Earendil (permission by Valar that he wear the Silmaril) is due to his persistance in acting on behalf of Middle-Earth. He shines because he sought the light (and ensuing freedom) on behalf of Middle-Earth.

Spoken Word (rhema??) is reunited with power. Sometimes the power is magical/ supernatural; sometimes it is simply a bond of honor. Word is not lightly broken. Broken word can bring bad-power or a curse (Paths of the Dead.) Even Sam gives Frodo his word (I have something to finish before the end; I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.) That spoken word is in union with the power of his loyalty; it is inseparable from his devotion to Frodo. Spoken Word and power (in this case, powerful devotion) are unified. Examples aboud, for instance Faramir's casual but binding word (Wouldn't pick it up by the roadside).

Power and Music are (re-)united throughout the legendarium, from Eru and the Valar singing the Ainulindale, Yavanna singing the trees into being; Melian, Luthien; Gildor's song driving the black rider away; Goldberry's songs, Arwen's hymn, Galadriel's songs ... etc.

Name and power: "More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." Aragorn's litany of names. Treebeard's caution on teling just anybody your name. More can certainly be said on this one.

Language and allegiance are re-united, mostly in the ancient tongues (but not in Westron.) . Those who speak elvish are Good Guys. Those who use the black speech are Bad Guys. But both orcs and men speak Westron at need. Interesting that the language of men is useable by the corrupt while the language of elves resists use by corruption (or vice versa.)

[davem]

Originally Posted by Helen

Those who speak elvish are Good Guys. Those who use the black speech are Bad Guys. But both orcs and men speak Westron at need. Interesting that the language of men is useable by the corrupt while the language of elves resists use by corruption.

I agree - yet wouldn't Sauron as Annatar' have spoken Elvish with the Elves of Eregion? And I also find it interesting that Sauron actually created the Black SpeechIts a language intended to create a new kind of link between name & thing named. Its an attempt, in a sense to change the world, to impose a new meaning on things- actually to alter the way his servants think about the world.

Surely, what he's attempting with the Black Speech is to change 'perceptions'. Its a bit like calling wild creatures 'game', or foxes 'vermin'. If a language is full of words for ugliness, violence, cruelty, that must inevitably affect the mindset of those who speak it. As we know, it never caught on among the orcs - perhaps they retained enough of their 'eruhini' nature that they couldn't adopt it fully, but the mentality behind it seems to have 'infected' the Westron they used. The orcs seem to have spoken almost a 'black Westron'.

Language, the words we use to refer to the 'things' of experience, affect the way we relate to them, so manipulation of language affects our behaviour, because it determines the way we treat things.

So, 'Those who speak elvish are Good Guys. Those who use the black speech are Bad Guys.' Yes, but are to what extent do the Elves 'speak' a 'good' language because they're 'good' beings, & to what extent are they 'good' because they speak a 'good' language'. & obviously the opposite point could be made in regard to Orcs? Do races (&individuals) shape the language they use, or does it shape them?. How 'orcish' would an orc be if he had been brought up speaking only Elvish? Or, how much 'magic', or 'genetic manipulation' did Morgoth use in making Orcs from Elves? Maybe his most powerful tool in that 'transformation' was language.....