LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, Estelyn, for keeping this thread on top for another week. I too think there is much we can still natter about, although it is a challenge deciding just where to jump in with so many excellent ideas already raised. SpM, however, has asked for more discussion about Pippin and about the entwives, and who am I to deny a gentleman such a polite request? So, for this post, on to Pippin!

There is a fascinating passage about Pippin, our peregrinating hobbit. Whether this relates to his alleged greater intuitiveness I cannot say, but I think it is part of Tolkien?s belief in the importance of story or of language. We have already discussed in a previous chapter how Tolkien suggests that Pippin will survive. (Being neither Ent nor Entwife, memory fails me now and I cannot remember if it is in ?The Riders of Rohan? chapter or ?The Uruk-hai.?) We have here a more extensive suggestion of what Pippin will make of his adventures. Settle down for a long read now?don?t be hasty--for this is a long quotation.

They found that they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head, and hardly any neck. Whether it was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. At any rate the arms, at a short distance from the trunk, were not wrinkled, but covered with a brown smooth skin. The large feet had seven toes each. The lower part of the long face was covered with a sweeping grey beard, bushy, almost twiggy at the roots, thin and mossy at the ends. But at the moment the hobbits noted little but the eyes. These deep eyes were now surveying them, slow and solemn, but very penetrating. They were brown, shot with a green light. Often afterwards Pippin tried to describe his first impression of them.

"One felt as if there was an enormous well behind them, filled up with ages of memory and long, slow, steady thinking; but their surface was sparkling with the present; like sun shimmering on the outer leaves of a vast tree, or on the ripples of a very deep lake. I don't know, but it felt as if something that grew in the ground?asleep, you might say, or just feeling itself as something between root-tip and leaf-tip, between deep earth and sky had suddenly waked up, and was considering you with the same slow care that it had given to its own inside affairs for endless years." my bolding

If I am reading this correctly (well, of course I think I am ) the first paragraph is spoken by the third-person narrator while the second is spoken by Pippin. The first paragraph reports Merry's and Pippin's first sight or perception about this wonderous strange new creature; it uses ?they? and talks about what the hobbits saw. The second paragraph is not part of the ?regular? narrative but reflects Pippin's future recollections, using the first person pronoun ?I? and the British form of the self-effacing first person pronoun, ?one.? This is personal recollection; it even addresses the Reader as "you". As such, this paragraph looks forward to the time when Pippin attempts to create story ought of this direct, personal experience.

And, more particularly, we see Pippin developing an extended metaphor to account for his perception of Treebeard's eyes. And not simply his eyes, of course, but of the effect of them and the particular springs of Entish nature. The first paragraph offers simple description, a listing of Treebeard's physical characteristics. The second paragraph supplies the comparison to the well of water illuminated by the light of ages and obviously will therefore include Pippin's further experience of Treebeard. This second paragraph of first person recollection extends our knowledge of the Ents beyond what a first, cursory perception would offer. Pippin's metaphor, as recollection after the fact, represents a summation of his experience of ents. All of his time with Treebeard and the other ents, the Entmoot and Quickbeam, and of course the subsequent events of the War of the Ring, are part of this metaphor.

Thus, Tolkien is able to suggest a depth of character to the Ent even at a first meeting with this remarkable character. He is also able to show a facet of Pippin beyond the "Fool of a Took" which characterised him early on in the Quest. Tolkien 'breaks' narrative time to do this in an extraordinary way. It is part, I think, of the many examples in this chapter which suggest his profound respect for story. It is through story that language and people live. This is the significance, I think, of the exchange between the hobbits and Treebeard over the hobbits' place in the old stories. Saucepan is right that this reflects Tolkien's own subtle play about reading the hobbits back into the legendarium, but it also reflects Tolkien's own concept of how stories are developed synchretically. This is a grammatical point and part of Tolkien's philological approach. (To provide a definition: ?the merging, as by historical change in a language, of two or more inflectional categories in a specified environment.? I am using this by analogy of course. from Random House College Dictionary.)

But how extraordinary to jump ahead in time, as it were, to provide a future recollection! (As this post is long enough, I think I shall have to return another time for the entwives.)

[drigel]

good analysis Beth!
Battles, adventures, and Captains of Gondor and Rohan aside, I always thought that the capture of M and P by the orcs and the meeting of the Ents was the most significant, life changing experience for those two, and was relayed as such by the author.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Aside from Bêthberry's excellent contribution and drigel's comment, this chapter discussion has lain dormant for the past week. I was hoping our resident poetry experts would jump at the chance to discuss Treebeard's poems, but apparently they're all still hibernating. Since I don't want the poems to go unmentioned, I will at least briefly touch upon them in hopes that my post might spark interest and encourage some last-minute posting before the next chapter thread goes up.

All of the poems are Entish ones, though they are given in 'Westron'. The first one is the 'old list', beginning "Learn now the lore of Living Creatures". It is alliterative verse and only a portion of the whole work is quoted. From the fragment we have, it is difficult to deduct if there is any particular logic to the order in which the animals are named. The Free Peoples seem to be listed in order of the age of each race, which would place Ents between Dwarves and Humans. Though hobbit poetry is normally written in rhyme, the line Pippin adds for Hobbits is in the mode of the rest of the poem.

There are two lines given in Elvish when Treebeard speaks of Lothlórien:

Laurelindórinan lindelorendor malinornélion ornemalin,
Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor.

The first word I can recognize, the longer name for Lothlórien, but perhaps someone has a translation of the whole text. I cannot tell if it is meant to be part of a poem or just prose.

Next comes "In the willow-meads of Tasarinan"; I have heard this sung to the tune by Donald Swann, a very nice version in my opinion. I'm not sure I can identify the type of poetry - it does not rhyme, but it's not in the alliterative mode either. It is wonderfully descriptive and evocative, following the seasons in the various woods, most of which have disappeared under the water at this time.

"When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf" is written in a simple rhyme scheme, with some repetition of whole or partial phrases. It also follows the seasons from spring to winter, and the stanzas alternate speakers, with Ents and Entwives given their varying views of each. Only the last two lines are spoken by both. It is also very descriptive and shows by the viewpoints of the genders how different they are. So much could be said about it, but I lack the time to go into detail. The most interesting thing to me is the fact that the only season they find a common ground is the winter, or a joined future in the West.

Quickbeam is the speaker of the next poem, “O Orofarnë”. It mourns the passing of trees that were his friends and is written in rhyme. The contrast between the appearance of the trees while alive to the way they looked after being destroyed is made almost visible.

The last poem is a marching song, beginning with “We come, we come with roll of drum” and continuing with “To Isengard!” It is very strongly rhythmic and repetitive; I have heard the recording of Tolkien reading this and increasing the speed – very dramatic! The sound of the words is very important in this poem – especially the word “doom” emphasizes the spirit of the marching Ents. I find it almost impossible to read the poem without getting on my feet and moving!

I’d be more than delighted to hear your comments on the poems and their significance to you!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

]From the fragment we have, it is difficult to deduct if there is any particular logic to the order in which the animals are named.

This is a question which has intrigued me for a long time in light of the tradition of 'The Oldest Animals'. I'll give an excerpt from the Mabinogion story of Kilhwch & Olwen (don't worry Esty, it's from Lady Guest's translation & is long out of copyright!)

They went forward until they came to the Ousel of Cilgwri. And Gwrhyr adjured her for the sake of Heaven, saying, "Tell me if thou knowest aught of Mabon the son of Modron, who was taken when three nights old from between his mother and the wall." And the Ousel answered, "When I first came here, there was a smith's anvil in this place, and I was then a young bird; and from that time no work has been done upon it, save the pecking of my beak every evening, and now there is not so much as the size of a nut remaining thereof; yet the vengeance of Heaven be upon me, if during all that time I have ever heard of the man for whom you inquire. Nevertheless I will do that which is right, and that which it is fitting that I should do for an embassy from Arthur. There is a race of animals who were formed before me, and I will be your guide to them."

So they proceeded to the place where was the Stag of Redynfre. "Stag of Redynfre, behold we are come to thee, an embassy from Arthur, for we have not heard of any animal older than thou. Say, knowest thou aught of Mabon the son of Modron, who was taken from his mother when three nights old?" The Stag said, "When I first came hither, there was a plain all around me, without any trees save one oak sapling, which grew up to be an oak with an hundred branches. And that oak has since perished, so that now nothing remains of it but the withered stump; and from that day to this I have been here, yet have I never heard of the man for whom you inquire. Nevertheless, being an embassy from Arthur, I will be your guide to the place where there is an animal which was formed before I was."

So they proceeded to the place where was the Owl of Cwm Cawlwyd. "Owl of Cwm Cawlwyd, here is an embassy from Arthur; knowest thou aught of Mabon the son of Modron, who was taken after three nights from his mother?" "If I knew I would tell you. When first I came hither, the wide valley you see was a wooded glen. And a race of men came and rooted it up. And there grew there a second wood; and this wood is the third. My wings, are they not withered stumps? Yet all this time, even until to-day, I have never heard of the man for whom you inquire. Nevertheless, I will be the guide of Arthur's embassy until you come to the place where is the oldest animal in this world, and the one that has travelled most, the Eagle of Gwern Abwy."

Gwrhyr said, "Eagle of Gwern Abwy, we have come to thee an embassy from Arthur, to ask thee if thou knowest aught of Mabon the son of Modron, who was taken from his mother when he was three nights old." The Eagle said, "I have been here for a great space of time, and when I first came hither there was a rock here, from the top of which I pecked at the stars every evening; and now it is not so much as a span high. From that day to this I have been here, and I have never heard of the man for whom you inquire, except once when I went in search of food as far as Llyn Llyw. And when I came there, I struck my talons into a salmon, thinking he would serve me as food for a long time. But he drew me into the deep, and I was scarcely able to escape from him. After that I went with my whole kindred to attack him, and to try to destroy him, but he sent messengers, and made peace with me; and came and besought me to take fifty fish spears out of his back. Unless he know something of him whom you seek, I cannot tell who may. However, I will guide you to the place where he is.

So they went thither; and the Eagle said, "Salmon of Llyn Llyw, I have come to thee with an embassy from Arthur, to ask thee if thou knowest aught concerning Mabon the son of Modron, who was taken away at three nights old from his mother." "As much as I know I will tell thee. With every tide I go along the river upwards, until I come near to the walls of Gloucester, and there have I found such wrong as I never found elsewhere; and to the end that ye may give credence thereto, let one of you go thither upon each of my two shoulders." So Cai and Gwrhyr Gwalstawd Ieithoedd went upon the two shoulders of the salmon, and they proceeded until they came unto the wall of the prison, and they heard a great wailing and lamenting from the dungeon. Said Gwrhyr, "Who is it that laments in this house of stone?" "Alas, there is reason enough for whoever is here to lament. It is Mabon the son of Modron who is here imprisoned; and no imprisonment was ever so grievous as mine, neither that of Lludd Llaw Ereint, nor that of Greid the son of Eri." "Hast thou hope of being released for gold or for silver, or for any gifts of wealth, or through battle and fighting?" "By fighting will whatever I may gain be obtained."

So we have a tradition of moving back through time to the eldest of all natural creatures. I don't know whether Tolkien was using the creatures mentioned in Treebeard's song in the same way - maybe it was just a nod to the old tale, but who can say...

(The whole story can be found here)

[Encaitare]

There are two lines given in Elvish when Treebeard speaks of Lothlórien:

The first word I can recognize, the longer name for Lothlórien, but perhaps someone has a translation of the whole text. I cannot tell if it is meant to be part of a poem or just prose.

I quote Ardalambion; some information here is taken from Appendix F under "Ents":

In a few cases, Treebeard also used Quenya elements and strung them together as he would do in his own language, like laurelindórenan lindelorendor malinornélion ornemalin. In Letters:308, Tolkien explains that "the elements are laure, gold, not the metal but the colour, what we should call golden light; ndor, nor, land, country; lin, lind-, a musical sound; malina, yellow; orne, tree; lor, dream; nan, nand-, valley. So that roughly he means: 'The valley where the trees in a golden light sing musically, a land of music and dreams; there are yellow trees there, it is a tree-yellow land.' " Another example of the same is Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómeanor, that Tolkien renders "Forestmanyshadowed-deepvalleyblack Deepvalleyforested Gloomyland". By this Treebeard meant, "more or less", there is a black shadow in the deep dales of the forest (Appendix F).

The first line is in the context that Treebeard is talking about Lothlorien, describing its beauty. Then he states that "Neither this country, nor anything else outside the Golden Wood, is what it was when Celeborn was young." He then recites the second line, which I suppose is in reference to his own land of Fangorn and how it has become dark and gloomy.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that information, Encaitare!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Coming in very late, I know, and I probably wouldn’t bother but I want to be sure to post to each chapter thread! (Is there a prize Esty for those of us who do so?)

The two elements of this chapter that I have always found the most interesting have already come in for some really excellent discussion here: the tale of the “split” between the Ents and the Entwives and the nature of Ent language. In reading through what’s here, I’m beginning to get a weird idea that we can actually relate these together.

The Entwives have a “possessive” view of nature insofar as they want to order it; to take what’s wild and untamed and to make it agricultural. This is what truly distinguishes them from the Ents and their more ‘accepting’ view of nature. They just like it without wanting to control it. But I’m not so sure I buy this.

Sure, the Ents are happy to let trees be trees, but they are an awful lot like the Entwives in their approach to language. As davem has already pointed out, for the Ents, the ‘ideal’ word is one that tells the complete story of a thing. For them, naming (Bob) and identifying (a man) are one and the same, whereas in our more ‘simple’ language they are different (for us Bob and ‘a man’ can refer to the same person; for Ents, presumably, there would only be one word-name for Bob that would render the general noun ‘man’ irrelevant (or at least hasty).

The Ents want to tame language in the same way that the Entwives want to tame nature. Or, rather (and rather more problematically) the Ents want to tame/contain reality with language. The list of the speaking peoples is a great example of this. All the conscious beings must have a place in their poem: poetry being, of course, the most wrought (i.e. worked upon) and even artificial form of language. When confronted with the treachery of Saruman and the hobbits, they spend their first night debating how to include hobbits in their list. They are as obsessive with their desire to control and tame life as are the Entwives, its just that their methods differ. While the Entwives are content to grow gardens, the Ents are rather doomed to try and capture all of reality in a language that will just get longer and longer as it tries to come up with words that capture the entirety of a thing.

They are in this respect a bit like the Elves, aren’t they? The Elves want/need to capture the present and to keep it static and unchanging forever. The Ents want/need to capture reality in a single word that can be the Final Word: that call tell the whole story – but of course for this to happen the story would have to stop. As long as time continues and new things happen to that hill, the name/word of it will change and grow as well. Treebeard says as much about his name: that it is always growing.