Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Finwe-89]

Originally Posted by Argonath

Upon the completion of the Return of the King Special Extended Edition, one scene stuck out like a sore thumb to me. That scene being the dramatic confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King.

To summarize for those who have not seen it:
The siege of Gondor is well underway; Grond has already taken down the Gates of Minas Tirith. Gandalf and Pippin, atop Shadowfax, are racing through the city to reach Faramir. Suddenly the Witch King appears seated on a fell beast. Gandalf and Pippin are thrown down, and the Nazgul raises his fiery sword; shattering Gandalf's staff. The horn of the Rohirrim is heard, and the Nazgul flies off.

As an avid fan of Tolkien's works, this scene especially annoyed me for it portrays Gandalf as weak and inferior. Whereas, in the book, Gandalf presents himself to the Witch King as he strode through the gates of Minas Tirish alone.

If any of you saw the scene, I would like to hear your views. Did you like it? Hate it?

I am not against Peter Jackson, in contrast, I have nothing but utter respect for the man. However, this scene made me cringe with distaste, and I'm very glad it didn't make the theatrical cut.

I agree with you, but I don't hate it, but on the other side I didn't liked it. It really looked like Gandalf was a weakling. But real fans of Tolkien know he isn't

[Captain of Despair]

In regards to the Witchking's sword, I found this quote in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor": "And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."

Originally Posted by Captain of Despair

In regards to the Witchking's sword, I found this quote in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor": "And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."

Excellent find!

I did recall a flaming sword, I just couldn't remember for the life of me whether or not it was in a metaphorical sense or not. This clears a lot up!

[Essex]

I think the reasons behind the changes to this scene were to do with Jackson's (mildly annoying) continuning reference to the 'world of men'. The WK mentions that it's the end of Men in this scene doesn't he? Gandalf is on the floor and I admit he looks frightened (but who wouldn't be?) but not YET beat, waiting for the WK to land a blow. Then the Horns of the Rohirrim blow, and the "World of Men" save Gandalf (and assist in finishing off the WK later)

RE the WK leaving at once. As the book states:

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the Gate and vanished.

This is why he left. He didn't have a second to spare and could get back to the Wizard later no doubt.......

PS I think we see Gandalf's staff being broken to show the power of the WK, and this heightens Merry's and Eowyn's bravery and their Deed a little later on in the film.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Essex

PS I think we see Gandalf's staff being broken to show the power of the WK, and this heightens Merry's and Eowyn's bravery and their Deed a little later on in the film.

Yes, but to the belittlement of Gandalf's own power? Not a very well thought out thing to do. It makes a mockery out of Gandalf's previous confrontations with the Balrog and Saruman.

[Imladris]

feel as if it would have been much more dramatic, and more suspenseful to see Gandalf standing before the WK, and the WK standing at the gates. Then hearing the horn call. It would have built up a lot more tension that way, intsead of having Gandalf thrown around like a rag doll.

I would like to (polemically) point out that people would call that inconceivably lame -- Tolkien fans among them (I do not mean to cause offense when I say this). Tension and no climax? *shakes head* On the other hand, PJ is screwed either way because he has to please both fans and non-fans while still yet doing justice to Tolkien's work. He also has to deal with the conflicting views.

And it would have been difficult if not impossible to do it the way Essex quoted. One of the drawbacks of movie making I'm afraid.

So he compromises. And we all know that a compromise is when everybody looses.

[narfforc]

The Confrontation between Gandalf and The Witch-King of Angmar was treated very badly by Jackson. What must be remembered here, is that Tolkien treats power very carefully. His sub-creations have only the power that is inherant within them. Power can be enhanced, veiled or even restricted, but it has to be there or come from somewhere. In the case of Gandalf the Grey, he is one of The Maiar, who has volunteered to come to Middle-Earth to contest the WILL of Sauron. So The Istari cannot in despair confront Sauron in open conflict, They have had their power restricted, by placing them in the bodies of lesser beings. Yet Gandalf the White had been sent back by the Valar, in Tolkiens own words, with enhanced sanctity. This is how he is able to break Sarumans staff, who previously, by some had been considered to be the more powerful of The Istari. The Witch-King of Angmar is in essence only a man, albeit a very powerful sorcerer in his day, the power that he could call on, was only from the power that was inherant of his kind. The Lord of the Nazgul could only call on the power that manifested itself in the form of pure terror that all the Nazgul had, yes he had the added advantage of the sorcery, but what evidence of actually how powerful that was, is never mentioned. Gandalf fights and destroys one of The Valaraukar, an immensely powerful being. The Lord of The Nazgul is in fact defeated by a woman, remember the propechy of Glorfindel after The Battle of Fornost, only says that he will not be killed by a man. The Nazgul along with The Witch-King were beaten back by Aragorn on Weathertop, and again by Glorfindel at The Fords, they were in fact not invincible to anyone who had strength of heart, And Gandalf the White had Narya. The whole scene of Gandalf grovelling on the floor is one of Jacksons biggest errors. If he had wanted to change it, then a few seconds of stand-off and a few different coloured thunderbolts meeting in mid-air, could have shown how close they were in power.

[Essex]

I agree with the above somewhat, but as I said before, jackson uses this scene IMHO to show the 'world of men' saving the day.

As much as we may think how well Gandalf could have fought the witch king, we will never know. I definitely get a sense of the rohirrim saving gandalf here, even when I read the books, but not to the extent that jackson shows.

I personally don't see gandalf grovelling in this scene. I see a terrified man, yes, but why not? I admit I didn't like his staff breaking, but again I've given my opinion above why I think Jackson has done it.

[FarmerCotton]

Originally Posted by Imladris

I would like to (polemically) point out that people would call that inconceivably lame -- Tolkien fans among them (I do not mean to cause offense when I say this). Tension and no climax? *shakes head* On the other hand, PJ is screwed either way because he has to please both fans and non-fans while still yet doing justice to Tolkien's work. He also has to deal with the conflicting views.

And it would have been difficult if not impossible to do it the way Essex quoted. One of the drawbacks of movie making I'm afraid.

So he compromises. And we all know that a compromise is when everybody looses.

I'm confused by your post... You seem to be calling the events of the book lame. The whole rivalry between Gandalf and the Witchking is tension and no climax... It's kind of the point. It's the biggest ----- in the history of fiction, yes. But it also allows for wide speculation and interpretation; it allows discussions like this to happen

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Okay, in the Extended version, the Witchking destroys Gandalf's staff. Later, he's seen with it intact. Explanation? It was definitely the same staff...