Elves and Ringwraiths

[Lhundulinwen]

I'm sorry, this is probably totally not what you meant, but here goes-

The average man and the average elf were probably pretty equal. But how many strictly average elves are there in LOTR? All the ones we get to know very much about are great in some way. Legolas was a prince, remember.

BUT- with the prophecy and a WOMAN killing the witch king, doesn't it seem that women, or at least Eowyn were greater than a man? Eowyn was of high birth, but she was the one who finally killed one of the nine. Not Gandalf, not Aragorn, not Eomer, not even Legolas. She got the job done. By fate, happenstance, or whatever, she was the one who killed him. Personally, I think that is one of the best parts of the book!

A woman, not a man, might be greater than an elf. There were no girl Nazgul, after all. Kings fell, not Queens.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lhundulinwen

There were no girl Nazgul, after all. Kings fell, not Queens.

Do we know that for sure?

[Gurthang]

That's a really good point Lhundulinwen.

I guess I should have mentioned that when I was saying man, I was meaning the human race. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Which does bring up a good point. Some of the women in ME are more powerful than the men. Galandriel is a good example, I'd consider her one of the most powerful beings in the books. But let's not get into a discussion about one gender or the other specifically. I don't want this to become an arguement over if there is a dominant sex. (BTW, I don't think any of the Nazgul were women. Didn't someone say something about 'nine kings of men', or am I mixing book and movie?)

Originally posted by Lhundulinwen
A woman, not a man, might be greater than an elf.

I don't know that this makes much sense. If you're being gender specific about the humans, then you should be with the elves, too. Which really brings us back to the previous discussion. One-on-one, would a man be superior to an elf (or a women superior to a she-elf)? And then what would the outcome be if it were a Nazgul rather than a man?

It makes a little more sense to go with the elf having the upper hand on the man. The elf generally has much more time to develope combat skills, and their race has been around much longer than the human race, so they would have a larger range of knowledge and skills. That alone gives them a pretty big advantage, so they would get my vote.

But the Nazgul have that same advantage, too. And considering there are probably more 'dark-elves' in ME, a Nazgul would not shy away initially. After these equalizers, a Ringwraith would have the advantage. The power they derive from their ring would give them a huge boost. So I think that the Nazgul would easily overpower an everyday elf.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

BTW, I don't think any of the Nazgul were women. Didn't someone say something about 'nine kings of men', or am I mixing book and movie?

In LotR, Gandalf says:

Nine he gave to mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

In the Silmarillion, it is said:

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerors, and warriors of old.

Neither quote precludes one or more of the original holders of the Nine being women. The capitalised 'Men' could denote either sex, while the warriors or sorcerors referenced in the second quote could have been female.

[Neithan]

BUT- with the prophecy and a WOMAN killing the witch king, doesn't it seem that women, or at least Eowyn were greater than a man?

Not really, as pointed out earlier there definitely were female characters that were greater than most males; Galadriel, Luthien, and so on. But Eowyn was not that impressive, in fact she was quite weak. I think that Tolkien was making several different points by having the Witch King die in this manner.

First, that the weak can sometimes make the biggest difference.

Second, that no matter how great you are, you can not escape your fate.

Third, that you should not base decisions on incomplete information. Hearing the prophesy, everyone assumed that the Witch King would be killed by a great Elf Lord or by Gandalf, and so he let his gaurd down when fighting these "lesser beings" and was killed by a women and a hobbit.

All of these lessons can be found elsewhere in Tolkiens stories. The first is the main idea behind The Lord of the Rings. The second can be found when Eru tells Melkor that even Melkor's secret thoughts have their source in him. The third is found in the Mirror of Galadriel and the Palantiri.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by davem

The power thing is a difficult issue, as this 'power' is more a negative thing than a positive one. It is a 'power' to negate, consume & destroy, not to create & build.

This "negative" power was the reward of the Nazgul for their gullibility ( ). Their greatest weapon was fear, and their purpose is to kill and destroy as Sauron commands, which is always tied up with their mission of retrieving the Ring.

The Elves - Elrond and Galadriel, specifically - were, on the other hand, given the power to restore and rebuild through the Elven Rings.

In this viewpoint, there is no sense comparing Elves and Ringwraiths. They are given entirely different powers. These we cannot compare.

As for physical strength, which seems to be the main idea in this thread, some are right in saying that Elves can stand up against the Nazgul. They can overcome fear, and strength in battle to reckon with. But if ever they were matched up against the Ringwraiths, I doubt they would be able to wipe them off the face of the earth. Their existence is tied with Sauron's and only through his defeat can they also be defeated. With exception to the Witch-King. We all know what happened to him.

[Neithan]

In this viewpoint, there is no sense comparing Elves and Ringwraiths. They are given entirely different powers. These we cannot compare.

True. In fact, I would say they are opposites. Because of this it is hard to say who would win a fight, it depends on many factors, including the time of day (Ringwraiths are strongest at night, weakest at noon).

[arathorn]

The average man and the average elf were probably pretty equal

No man... you must look the hole scenario.
Eldar>>>Avari(wood elves)
Men(descendants from the mixed Edain)=Avari
Eldar>>>Men
Eldar=Numenoreans or some of the Edain Hadoreans(pure blood)

The average Eldar are many times described as being strong.
Much taller.
Sight far superior than of Men.
Better coordination(higher degree of concentration and ambidexterity).
More stamina.
More durable.
Higher metabolism and greater spiritual contact what makes their healing more effective.
Faster/more lithe.
better skills(crafts and fighting)
And there are certain degree of Spiritual power.

Here are some later statements and comparisons made by Tolkien.
1.“…and they were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir-trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.
2.“…that time the Noldor still walked the lands here, the most powerful and most beautiful children in the world, and their languages were still heard by mortals.”
3.“…The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible."
4.They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
5.'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
6.They (Elves) were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods. Their bodies could not, however, survive vital injuries, or violent assaults upon their structure; nor replace missing members (such as a hand hewn off).
7.In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe."
8."The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves..."
9. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days.
And we must remember about Beren who could defeat Celegorm and was always said to be very strong and remember along with Turin because of his limbs. However when he and Finrod were captured who was the one who burst his bonds with spiritual/physical power and disarmed killed the werewolf?? Probably Beren wasn't stronger than Celegorm but more skilled and less arrogant.