Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by obloquy

But doesn't it conflict with Saruman's defeat-by-staff-exploding?

Sorry, I misunderstood. Well, one might take the breaking of the staff as symbolically suggesting defeat (thus heghtening tension etc), but that doesn't necessarily mean that the staffless Wizard is without power. Saruman in the films may still have had power, but we never find out as he takes a dive off the edge of Orthanc, courtesy of Grima.

[Essex]

All G & WK Scene Haters. You're going to have to live with it. This is the FILM ADAPTATION not the book.

I've stated my main points earlier as to why Gandalf's staff was destroyed. (1/ Gandalf + staff = no problem dealing with Denethor 2/ The 'world of men' saves the day)

Here's one more.

In this film Gandalf has not had a real 'baddie' to confront, as (thankfully) Sauron does not exist in physical form in this movie. Therefore Jackson has given him decent oposition to fight.

The Rohirrim DID help save the day. Jackson has just heightened this by seemingly having Gandalf ready to take a pasting, and then the horns blow and the WK leaves realising his plans may have gone wrong. I'll say again, IMO in the book as in the film, the Rohirrim saved Gandalf. I feel uncomfortable that Gandalf's staff is broken, yes, but I put up with it.

Now if you think this is bad, thank your lucky stars two other things didn't make the final cut of the films as discussed in the rotk DVD EE appendicies.

1/ Sauron appears in physical form to fight Aragorn. (funnily enough the very first time I saw Aragorn fighting the Troll at the black gates I thougt they had airbrushed Sauron out of this fight scene)

2/ Frodo pushes Gollum over the edge (this was the version until the last day of woods/serkins pickup filming)

Just imagine one of those (or both) appearing in the film. We would be discussing nothing else!!!

PS On another point, we do not actually see Gandalf use his staff to destory Saruman's do we? As SPM points out, a wizard without a staff still has power (albeit no doubt lessened)

Hola Essex,
Respectfully, I am not losing sleep over the Witch King vs. Gandalf situation in Return of the King, but considering that this thread is devoted to expressing views regarding that scene, I will be happy to continue to use this forum as a vehicle to share my points, and hear other points.

Also, I am not quite clear on the significance of Gandalf's having to confront Denethor, and thus needing to be devoid of his staff.

[Essex]

Movie wise, with his staff Gandalf could have 'zapped' him from the gate as he rode in. Unfortunately he didn't have his staff so Denethor could start the flames which lead to his death before Gandalf could grab the 'pike' from the guard and confront him. With the staff Gandalf could have overcome him quickly without the need to ride up and knock him down, etc.

that's one of the reason's why I believe he staff was broken, along with the others I've posted.PS Habriz, no worries debating the scene, I just feel sorry for the people who feel so strongly about it and it 'ruins' the film for them, so much so that one of us if thinking of scrapping watching the EE and buying the theatrical release instead! How sad.........

[Boromir88]

All G & WK Scene Haters. You're going to have to live with it. This is the FILM ADAPTATION not the book.

I have a lot of respect for you Essex, in defending these movies. However, we have a right to find faults in the movies. If someone creates/writes a book/movie they have to accept that it's going to be criticized, no matter how good, or appealing it is to us. Tolkien was criticized a countless amount of times, the characters lack depth, I don't care for the plot, it sounds too biblical...etc. Some people are just attracted to other things then others, I don't agree with those critics, but they pick what they don't like and they show examples to back it up. You, or I, or SpM, or anyone on here, may not agree with those complaints, but if someone tells us why they have a problem with that scene (and I see some reasonable explanations) then I don't see any problem with having complaints about that scene, or any other part in that movie. I do agree that the excuse "it's different from the books," is weak, but there have been other reasons given, why this scene doesn't work.

[Essex]

I hear what you're saying, Boromir.

What I'm doing is making up for the time I also spent a few years back slagging off the first movie because it wasn't the same as the book, or that some things shouldn't happen. (this was on another Forum site that seems to have bit the dust before I came along this one....)

I use to moan frequently and LOUDLY. I then watched the EE version, along with the commentaries and appendicies, and I finally saw the light on how these movies are made.

I still have quite a fair few issues with a lot of the movies, but it seems to me that there aren't too many of us who point out why certain changes have to me made by the movie makers, and therefore back up the Director and scriptwriters. (For example, I have to Live with the Faramir/osgiliath change, and the EE has made it a bit more palatable)

Now most of us are glad the movies are made, I just HONESTLY feel sorry for people who felt let down by the last movie (there seems to be a lot of them). ROTK was beyond my wildest dreams how good it was. I spent days and weeks beforehand fretting on how they could and would muck up the last film. So I really do feel sorry for people who didn't thoroughly enjoy the film..........

Back to the Staff. Yes, I can see people's anger over this, and I admit I winced when I saw it explode. But as I've said, we have to live with the changes in the films and try not to get too bothered by them. I've learnt to do this, and I wish other people could do this too. I can almost TASTE the anger in some of these posts. I am not saying you cannot be angry, it is just my wish that we could 'Live with it' as I stated before.

Ah well, wish over, and back to real life......

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Essex

I can almost TASTE the anger in some of these posts. I am not saying you cannot be angry, it is just my wish that we could 'Live with it' as I stated before.

Why all the anger?