Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta

[Lalwendë]

I've got to thinking again after reading the comments by davem, Bethberry and Formedacil on evil. Tolkein as a Catholic and Christian would have heard much on the 'nature' of evil by way of his religious beliefs, and one of those could well have been the line of thought that it is best not to go too deeply into the study of evil lest it corrupt the soul into evil itself. This is a common thought amongst many fundamentalists today, who ironically do not always approve of Tolkien!

But applying these comments to the Osanwe-kenta, I'm quite sure that Tolkien was making a point about being aware of and wary of evil; or perhaps suspicious is a better word? But alongside this, he could also have been making a philosophical point about those who allow too much knowledge of evil to eneter their heads. He could have been saying that evil can be manipulative, it can treat you as a 'friend', much in the same way as Melkor does to those he wishes to enslave, and that while we must be aware, we must also not go too far into these matters, in case we too become enslaved.

So, aside from the Osanwe-kenta telling us much new information about Arda, does it also have a metaphorical message for us?

[davem]

I don't know if this is ever so slightly off-topic, but reading the following passage from Osanwe Kenta:

Yet we may mark also how the "affine'' may more quickly understand the lambe* that they use between them, and indeed all that they would say is not put into words. With fewer words they come swifter to a better understanding. There can be no doubt that here osanwe is also often taking place; for the will to converse in lambe is a will to communicate thought, and lays the minds open. It may be, of course, that the two that converse know already part of the matter and the thought of the other upon it, so that only allusions dark to the stranger need be made; but this is not always so. The affine will reach an understanding more swiftly than strangers upon matters that neither have before discussed, and they will more quickly perceive the import of words that, however numerous, well-chosen, and precise, must remain inadequate.

I couldn't help but be reminded of Tolkien's own close friendships, starting with the TCBS: (Rob Gilson, GB Smith & Christopher Wiseman), through the Coalbiters & culminating with the Inklings & with Lewis in particular.

Was this aspect of Osanwe someting that Tolkien had had personal experience of? Did he gift the inhabitants of his creation something that he had known personally , & valued so highly?

* lambe: 'tongue-movement', (way of) using the tongue'; in non-technical use, 'language'; 'a way of talking; dialect', applied to the separate languages of any people or region (Wl:394). In linguistic theory, a tengwesta (q.v.) employing phonetic signs; also 'the way of speaking', i.e. phonetics and phonology (WJ:39S). Cf. also WJ:416 n. 33; LAB- 'lick' (LR:367).

[Petty Dwarf]

Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'
And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.
Then Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'
Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know.

I don't think this is a good example of sanwe taking place, Heren, but rather dreadful intimidation. Gorlim told Sauron what he wanted to know, but probably with spoken language not thought-transmission. But intimidation like that could make someone drop the guard of Unwill. But it wasn't the case here.

The best example of sanwe (whether aided by rings or not) I can find within the legendarium is, oddly, in Many Partings. It's the convo between Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf.

Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

The greyness of the figures maybe isn't poetic, but relates to some overcoming of their hröar by their fëar(?). If sent thoughts are dimmed "in force and precision" by hröa, does the hröa show any change?

[Maédhros]

A lot can happen when you are off for the weekend.
HI my friend, I liked your post and I would like to enter into a little more detail regarding the Gorlim situation.

From The Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian Recommenced

There now in anguish Gorlim lay:
with bond on neck, on hand and foot,
to bitter torment he was put,
to break his will and him constrain
to buy with treason end of pain.
But naught to them would he reveal
of Barahir, nor break the seal
of faith that on his tongue was laid;
until at last a pause was made,
and one came softly to his stake,
a darkling form that stooped, and spake
to him of Eilinel his wife.
‘Wouldst thou,’ he said, ‘forsake thy life,
who with few words might win release
for her, and thee, and go in peace,
and dwell together far from war,
friends of the King? What wouldst thou more?’
And Gorlim, now long worn with pain,
yearning to see his wife again
(whom well he weened was also caught
in Sauron’s net), allowed the thought
to grow, and faltered in his troth.
Then straight, half willing and half loath,
they brought him to the seat of stone
where Sauron sat. He stood alone
before that dark and dreadful face,
and Sauron said: ‘Come, mortal base!
What do I hear? That thou wouldst dare
to barter with me? Well, speak fair!
What is thy price?’ And Gorlim low
bowed down his head, and with great woe,
word on slow word, at last implored
that merciless and faithless lord
that he might free depart, and might
gain find Eilinel the White,
and dwell with her, and cease from war
against the King. He craved no more.

Then Sauron smiled, and said: ‘Thou thrall!
The price thou askest is but small
for treachery and shame so great!
I grant it surely! Well, I wait:
Come! Speak now swiftly and speak true!’
Then Gorlim wavered, and he drew
half back; but Sauron’s daunting eye
there held him, and he dared not lie:
as he began, so must he wend
from first false step to faithless end:
he all must answer as he could,
betray his lord and brotherhood,
and cease, and fall upon his face.

Then Sauron laughed aloud. ‘Thou base,
thou cringing worm! Stand up,
and hear me! And now drink the cup
that I have sweetly blent for thee!
Thou fool: a phantom thou didst see
that I, I Sauron, made to snare
thy lovesick wits. Naught else was there.
Cold ‘tis with Sauron’s wraiths to wed!
Thy Eilinel! She is long since dead,
dead, food of worms less low than thou.
And yet thy boon I grant thee now:
to Eilinel thou soon shalt go,
and lie in her bed, no more to know
of war - or manhood. Have thy pay!'

I have to agree with your comment HI, but there are a few things that I would like to add. First that Gorlim was tortured and that may make a person reveal something that would not otherwise would.
We know that torture alone was not sufficient for Gorlim so Sauron tricked him into the illusion that if he would betray Barahir and Co. he would have his love back. That he was after that point unable to offer Sauron resistance is I think because of the fear of Sauron being there. Remember that if Sauron did indeed could "see" into his mind, he wouldn't have needed to have Gorlim tell him, he could have retrieved the information himself.
From Ósanw-kenta

Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. And this weapon he found in "language". For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru's despite. Their bodies being of Eä are subject to force; and their spirits, being united to their bodies in love and solicitude, are subject to fear on their behalf. And their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body: it is not the sáma nor its sanwe, but it may express the sanwe in its mode and according to its capacity. Upon the body and upon the indweller, therefore, such pressure and such fear may be exerted that the incarnate person may be forced to speak.

Thus by deceit, by lies, by torment of the body and the spirit, by the threat of torment to others well loved, or by the sheer terror of his presence, Melkor ever sought to force the Incarnate that fell into his power, or came within his reach, to speak and to tell him all that he would know. But his own Lie begot an endless progeny of lies.
By this means he has destroyed many, he has caused treacheries untold, and he has gained knowledge of secrets to his great advantage and the undoing of his enemies. But this is not by entering the mind, or by reading it as it is, in its despite. Nay, for great though the knowledge that he gained, behind the words (even of those in fear and torment) dwells ever the sáma inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed from it (as cries from behind a locked door); they must be judged and assessed for what truth may be in them.

It is stated Gift of Eru can not be withdrawn, but we have Nazgûl living on and on. And here, it seems, the explanation is provided for why that should be so. It is another trickery, cheating. Deceit in another form - it seems Sauron learned how to turn flesh into what they call Undead in PC games I may an addict of, not letting the body die, but transforming it, so keeping the sould tied up to it. The Gift of Eru is not, technically, withdrawn - just the object has not died yet. Its a bit like of what effect may be of freezing one's body for infinite time in a fridge (I've heard some rich people practice the process - with the hope of being returned to life in some better future), but retaining operational functions (i.e. ability to move and be conscious) at the same time. The death is postponed, not cancelled.

You have nailed it my friend.

57 years is nothing to a Maia, it probably wouldn't make that much difference. If he was able to change the form of his hröa, then he couldn't have had that strong of a bond to it.

Probably in his 57 years in Númenórë he used the same hröa, so it could have an effect because he had already diverted some of his power in the Ring.

[aiea]

I wish to try to start some investigations starting from some ideas that Tolkien just hint.
That is a little crazy because it is really hard to do it (and not in my first language) So i'll hope in help
1) when Iluvatar created he start a division between him and Ea.
2) Light is code that need void (or no light) to be understand on a dual level
3) Jewels are not trinkets to make one more pretty, but (living) symbols of what Light is.
4) so Barahir ring, silmaril elassar gem, the 3 rings, the 7 palantirs have a lot on common between them
5) power is really a mystery. Knowledge of something also if it is very deep if it is not knowledge of All it is always a lie so one has to be deceived.
To be able to grasp how the 3 rings (that are never be touched from Sauron) are still subject to his power it is one of the biggest mystery.My Hint it is that the good that has not included the evil in its good is a fake good, just a preservation of some fixe idea.
Manve or Ulmo ideas of the song without the understanding of the complexity of Iluvatar are just dead, wrong, evil if you like as Melkor. Just when them understand the Whole acknowledge Rain and Snow: If was allowed to them the realization of an Unmarred Arda as were in their partial understanding this bring immobility that is as Death for Iluvatar aims.
5) Language . To be able to speak the first language (before Babele) bring the understanding of the thing.
High Elfic ( of whom i am full ignorant )or Ent language is very good, very alike to what is Life,but has not a name for the Evil (and it is very interesting the Ent name for Orcs ) .
The black language is at opposite magic. It steal from the thing some meaning and put it under its knowledge of it.
Men that take Melkor for God or Saruman fall in breaking light are not stupid: They know that Black magic, that Evil is more strong , more powerful that good.Andin some way they are able to see what the good one are not able to see a sort of stupidity . Radagast is a stupid also if he is uncorrupted.
6) The one ring is the symbol of one division. To get more power one has to loose some power.First one loose the possibility to change form then reduce his possibilities.
Fear of death is fear of changing. For a man to live in Amman is the most terrible thing that could occur to him.
7) the ringwraith are become the rings (this is my take about the discussion :who hold the ring) They are immortal as a thing could become immortal but that is a dream or a nightmare...

[aiea]

Originally Posted by aiea

To be able to grasp how the 3 rings (that are never be touched from Sauron) are still subject to his power it is one of the biggest mystery.

Vilya ("air"), the Ring of Water, is made of gold with a big sapphire. .
The second Ring, Nenya ("water"), is made of the Dwarf-silver Mithril with a diamond on it.
. Narya ("fire"), the third Ring, is made of unknown metal with a ruby on it. These Rings had the power to preserve and to protect, and they also helped their bearers to endure the weariness of Middle-earth and carry the burden of life

From the point of view of elements the Earth as element (as Tapas the lower form of energy)
rules from below all these 3 elements . You could preserve and protect, but at the end:"From dust you have come. To dust you shall return.
The only way to salvation is in the third property “carry the burden of life”. Fire of spirit that burns more strong than fire of the molten core of earth. The only real preservation and protection is destruction !
So is the image of Frodo at one point in the book...