Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[Neithan]

There are some who hold that Gorbag's reference, in his conversation with Shagrat, to the "bad old times" and the "Great Siege" derives from first hand experience, suggesting an extraordinary longetivity.

Does Tolkien say anywhere what the normal life span of an Orc is?

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear.

I think it only applied to Morgoth (and maybe Sauron since he became a lot like Morgoth in the end). After all, Ungoliant had offspring.

[Petty Dwarf]

Being so low on the scale of power, these Boldogs would likely have been tied to a single incarnate form (hence their ability to reproduce and mate with other proto-Orks), and would thus have definitely been "slay-able", just as the more powerful Balrogs were. Also, as with the more powerful Balrogs, these Boldogs would not have been like to reincarnate themselves.

I don't know if I agree with Boldogs being tied to a single incarnate form. Leaving room for variability I'm sure some could have been, while others were not. I always read the sentence "Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared..." as "Orc-captains who were slain but not killed, and who reappeared...". Perhaps due to a confusion in the definition, what made me make the leap was the fact that Boldog the orc-captain obviously died in Doriath, yet Tolkien puts forth his name as one that reappears. There is a purposeful contradiction here, created by Tolkien.

I also don't think a Boldog was very much further down from a Balrog. They were described as "only less formidable than the Balrogs". Read with the emphasis on the "less". The greater ones at least were horrifying, and probably more trollish than orkish.

So could a Balrog become a Boldog in rehousing?

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear

In the same Orcs passage from Quendi and Eldar it states specifically that Melkor had no children. It seems as if reproduction was for some Ainu and not for others. But any who did must have been tied to a single incarnate form.

[obloquy]

I think your rankings are more complicated than they need to be. Morgoth was obviously the most powerful of the Fallen. Sauron was an especially powerful Umaia, but I do not see any reason to put him in a different class than the Balrogs. They were all the same, they just possessed varying degrees of power.

Also, Ungoliante was not an Umaia.

I think that it was possible for a spirit that had died as an Incarnate to be reembodied by a more powerful being.

[Neithan]

Also, Ungoliante was not an Umaia.

Isn't this debatable? I always thought that she was a powerful Ainu and that she was one of those who went over to Melkor during the Music. But after they came to Arda and began shaping it Ungoliant left Melkor to fulfill her own purposes. Isn't it also possible that she was one of the people of Varda or at least had something to do with light and that Melkor corrupted her so that she became somewhat the opposite.

I think that it was possible for a spirit that had died as an Incarnate to be reembodied by a more powerful being.

An interesting thought but what are you basing it on?

I don't think that the two Gothmogs are the same, the Lord of Balrogs was just a little to great to be associated with a mere Boldog.

[the phantom]

Might they perhaps be candidate for Boldog-ship?

How about that orc captain in Moria that stabbed Frodo. He seemed to be a bit special. I don't recall that every orc let off a flash of light when their heads were hewn.

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear.

After all, Ungoliant had offspring.

Yep, yep. Just because an Ainu goes bad doesn't mean they can't reproduce.

I think that it was possible for a spirit that had died as an Incarnate to be reembodied by a more powerful being.

An interesting thought but what are you basing it on?

Melkor stuck spirits and such in dragons and wolves, so we know he could house spirits. So why not rehouse? Elves were rehoused after they died, so we know it's possible to rehouse a spirit.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Melkor stuck spirits and such in dragons and wolves, so we know he could house spirits. So why not rehouse? Elves were rehoused after they died, so we know it's possible to rehouse a spirit.

Agreed, but the ability to rehouse the Elves was not given to the Elves themselves, but to the Valar. Perhaps it is similar with the Maiar: once unable to reincarnate themselves, they are dependent on a higher power for rehousing. Of course, Melkor wouldn't be the power that SHOULD be doing this, but he is said to share in, and covet, the gifts of all his brethren, and it would be a form of rebellion to usurp the authority of the Valar (and in doing so create his own army).

Originally Posted by obloquy

I think your rankings are more complicated than they need to be. Morgoth was obviously the most powerful of the Fallen. Sauron was an especially powerful Umaia, but I do not see any reason to put him in a different class than the Balrogs. They were all the same, they just possessed varying degrees of power.

Also, Ungoliante was not an Umaia.

Well, I admitted myself that there could just as well be three rankings as four. But it was a somewhat minor point...

As for Ungoliant, she HAS to be an Úmaia, since how else does one explain that she joined the service of Melkor early on, and she recognised him as the Lord of Utumno? She's also quite powerful in her own right, and once she devours the power of the Trees, she has enough power to threaten Melkor himself (although his power is, of course, much dispersed by now throughout the matter of middle-earth).

It might be possible to debate whether or not Ungoliant was an Úmaia, but I think it has to be agreed on that she was an Ainu in origin, and since she was clearly not of Vala status, she must have been a Maia. Whether or not the "Ú" should be tacked on is pretty unimportant...

Originally Posted by Petty Dwarf

I also don't think a Boldog was very much further down from a Balrog. They were described as "only less formidable than the Balrogs". Read with the emphasis on the "less". The greater ones at least were horrifying, and probably more trollish than orkish.

The relative strength of a Boldog to a Balrog must be a debate that cannot finally be settled, considering how little we know about Boldogs, but I at least should say that a Boldog was considerably below the level of a Balrog. The Balrogs were armies unto themselves. It wasn't until the fall of Gondolin that one ever suffered from death. Previously, any battle including them was won by Morgoth.

Boldogs, on the other hand, were in charge of waging war against Doriath, something that Morgoth surely must have seen as near-impossible in his then-current situation. Had he REALLY been intent on crushing Thingol, surely he would have sent Sauron or Gothmog with the Balrogs against its borders. As it is, we only hear of ONE Boldog leading the skirmishes. In addition to which, it would seem that Beleg and Turin were both quite successful (above and beyond Melian's aid) in holding off his threat.

So personally, I don't think that the Boldogs were all that fearsome compared with Balrogs. Perhaps the analogy of the little-known Lesser Rings can be applied: "Mere trifles to the Elves, but essays in the craft, but still perilous in my mind to mortals" [Paraphrased from memory from the Lord of the Rings Not intended to be completely accurate.]

[Kuruharan]

Here is a thread that explains the definition of Maia and explains the theory of why Ungoliant was not one.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It might be possible to debate whether or not Ungoliant was an Úmaia, but I think it has to be agreed on that she was an Ainu in origin, and since she was clearly not of Vala status, she must have been a Maia.

Is it really that clear cut that she was a Maia?

I have not yet read HoME but the only reference to Ungoliant's origins of which I am aware is in The Silmarillion:

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

Based on this, the argument might go either way. On one analysis, the extract suggests that she did not originate within Arda but came from outside, as did the Ainur. Yet, if she was Ainu in origin, would the Eldar not know whence she came? It is possible, to my mind, to read this extract as suggesting that she was a powerful being that came into existence with the creation of Arda (as a consequence of Melkor's part in the song?), living at first in the darkness surrounding it, and that she was corrupted into Melkor's service shortly after he entered Arda.

Is there any other evidence as to Ungoliant's origins? In particular, is there anything that establishes that she was Ainu in origin?

Edit after cross-posting with Kuruharan: Thanks for the link. That thread suggests that Ungoliant was an Ainu but not a Maia, as she did not serve the Valar. But is it not possible to argue that she came into existence with the creation of Arda and was therefore not an Ainu?

[obloquy]

Ungoliante was an eala in her beginnings, yes, but other than that we know nothing about her. She came into Arda uninvited, and so does not fall into the categories of those who were stationed in Arda by Eru. The distinctions "Vala" and "Maia" are given to Ainur (which may itself be an Arda-specific class of beings) who occupy specific stations appointed to them by Eru.

Apart from this, she was never actually in Melkor's service, but that point is moot.

Edit: And it's a good thing the point is moot, because Tolkien disagrees with me. Here's his latest word on the subject from Annals of Aman:

Whence she came none of the Eldar know, but maybe she came to the South out of the darkness of Ëa, in that time when Melkor destroyed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and because of his dwelling in the North the heed of the Valar was turned most thither and the South was long forgotten. Thence she crept towards the realm of the light of the Valar. For she hungered for light and hated it. In a deep cleft of the mountains she dwelt, and took shape as it were a spider of monstrous form, sucking up all such light as she could find, or that strayed over the walls of Valinor, and she spun it forth again in black webs of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode, and she was famished.

It may well be that Melkor, if none other, knew of her being and her abode, and that she was in the beginning one of those that he had corrupted to his service.

Edit again: Reading more carefully reveals that Tolkien thinks she may have been one of those he corrupted to his service.

[The Saucepan Man]

uh.. wots an eala ???/