Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[davem]

Re: Ealar

It seems from this that these 'evil 'ealar' were the Balrogs only. I can't see from this passage (unless there's another one I've missed - there isn't a reference to 'ealar' in the index) that Ungoliant could be an ealar.

I do find the reference to 'other monsters of divers shapes and kinds' interesting. It may, of course, only refer to the dragons, werewolve & vampires of the later legends, but there's an interesting passage in 'Tolkien & the Great War:

Tolkien had listed several monstrous creatures in the 'Poetic and Mythologic Words of Eldarrissa & its ethnological chart: tauler, tyulqin, and sarqin, names which in Qenya indicate tree-like stature or an appetite for flesh. . . All these new races of monsters proved transitory, bar two: the Balrogs and the Orcs. Orcs were bred in 'the subterranean heat and slime' by Melko: 'Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal. . .' The name had been taken from the Old English orc, 'demon', but only because it was phonetically suitable. The role of demon properly belongs to Balrogs, whose Goldogrin name means 'cruel demon' or 'demon of anguish'. These are Melko's flame-wielding shock troops and battlefield captains, the cohorts of Evil.

(Edited for clarification)

[Neithan]

I can't see from this passage (unless there's another one I've missed - there isn't a reference to 'ealar' in the index) that Ungoliant could be an ealar.

To be fair there is no conclusive evidence either way. Personally, I believe, as stated before, that she was an Ainur of light like Varda. She would be a powerful Ainu probably as great as some of the Valar. Then when she turned evil she became a thing of darkness rather than light but she still craved light even as she hated it.

[davem]

I can't help but speculate that rather than being an ealar Ungoliant seems more like a kind of 'manifestation' of the 'Void'. She comes across as an 'absence' rather than a 'presence' in so many ways. She swallows, consumes, the light.

This is pure speculation, but I wonder, as it seems the 'Void' was a 'place' where Melkor could wander before the creation of Arda, whether something of that 'emptiness' entered into the Music through him, that it was some part of the theme that he introduced - the place where he sought the Secret Fire but failed to find it. She exists because Melkor sang her into being...

Of course, this drags into the realm of metaphysics in a big way

This could account for Ungoliant's 'existence'...or it may just be a mad idea

[obloquy]

You don't think Ungoliante was a spirit? That's funny.

She was originally discarnate as evidenced by the fact that she is stated to have descended into Arda (the created physical world) from outside (where all things are necessarily incorporeal). She eventually took physical form since she is stated to have produced offspring.

If she was an Ainu, she was an eala. If you believe she existed as Tolkien describes, she was an eala. No two ways about it.

It seems from this that these 'evil 'ealar' were the Balrogs only.

No, the definition of eala is clearly quoted above.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

This is pure speculation, but I wonder, as it seems the 'Void' was a 'place' where Melkor could wander before the creation of Arda, whether something of that 'emptiness' entered into the Music through him, that it was some part of the theme that he introduced - the place where he sought the Secret Fire but failed to find it. She exists because Melkor sang her into being...

An appealing proposition, davem, and one which I do not believe has been considered before.

But, to return to a question which I asked earlier, is there any reason to suppose that Ungoliant was created before Eä? Could she not have come into existence, as part of Melkor's part in the song, at the same time as Eä was created? The extract from the Silmarillion quoted above talks of her descending from the shadows that lay about Arda, but those shadows would have been within Eä, and would therefore have been created with it. So it does not follow from that extract that she pre-existed Eä.

The following is an extract from Of The Flight of the Noldor, in relation to Nan Dungortheb:

For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and [Ungoliant] mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideus webs.

Perhaps these other creatures were of the same race as Ungoliant, although lesser than her, and they too had crept in from the shadows that lay about Arda.

[Neithan]

Perhaps these other creatures were of the same race as Ungoliant, although lesser than her, and they too had crept in from the shadows that lay about Arda.

Interesting, I had always assumed that these spiders were just creations of Morgoth just like the Orcs and other things but what you say is possable.
Also, Tolkien never said for sure that she "descended from the shadows about Arda" only that the Elves believed that she did. So she could be just about anything.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Obloquy

If you believe she existed as Tolkien describes, she was an eala. No two ways about it.

No, the definition of eala is clearly quoted above.

[QUOTE]These were the (ëalar) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days.

[Petty Dwarf]

No, the definition of eala is clearly quoted above.

The definition does seem certain: ëalar are unhoused spirits. "Beings" in the sense that they exist regardless of embodiment. Obviously all Ainur were ëalar. But an unhoused elf or humans after death would be considered ëalar as well.

Obviously embodied, Ungoliant was no longer an ëala.

As for speculation, my belief is that the ëalar of all later incarnate creatres were present before, during, or sometime in the middle of the Music. But other celestial beings coeval or greater than the Ainur? Why assume there was some other kind of being than the Ainur------what are the Ainur anyway?