LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 05 - The White Rider

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Esty

I wonder if Gandalf was now allowed to take on spirit form for instant transportation?

I would say that the restrictions still largely applied, just as they originally applied to Saruman - who he is, in effect, replacing. He still seems to remain bound by them for the remainder of the book. Perhaps they were "relaxed" slightly, but I think that it is more that, as Gandalf the White, he had a greater reserve of "innate" power with which to fulfil his mission within the preordained strictures.

Originally Posted by Nilp

What is it with Aragorn that he had been willing to die (and thus abandoning his claim to kingship, plus leaving his promise to Boromir unfulfilled) for Merry and Pippin?

I rather thought that Gimli's comment had been an example of grim humour and that neither he nor Aragorn really expected to starve if they pursued the Hobbits' trail into the depths of Fangorn. But it does show that, having made a commitment to find Merry and Pippin, he feels duty bound to follow it. Just as he could not leave them to their fate back at Parth Galen (when the same considerations were in play), he cannot do so now. Although he knows that they are free from the Orcs they are still in peril as far as he is concerned. It is only when he learns of their safety from Gandalf that he feels able to abandon the chase.

Originally Posted by Child

I am reading Aragorn's decision as strictly a question of morals. Time and again, Tolkien makes the point that we must focus on the immediate problem at hand and make a judgment according to what is right or wrong in that situation, even if long range considerations would seem to suggest otherwise.

I take the point that, like Gandalf, he lays his own interests aside and trusts to a higher power so that he is able to address the problem at hand. Although I wonder how applicable that lesson is in reality? Time and time again, it seems to me, governments, companies and individuals fall into error when they make short-term decisions to address immediate issues, rather than taking the longer term view. The difference here, I suppose, is that the "short-term" solutions taken by Gandalf and Aragorn are not in their own interests, but rather run contrary to them. They are, as Child and Fordim have said, making a personal sacrifice rather than furthering their interests.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

In this connection, I have always thought that the answer to The Saucepan Man's question ... is simply that they are "close at hand" and Gandalf literally cannot at first recall them.

Originally Posted by Child

I, too, was left with the impression that Gandalf quote honestly could not remember many things closest to him, and inadvertently gave the impression that he was attempting to "disguise" himself. Quite the opposite was the case. Being so close to the mysterious and other-worldly transformation that had taken place 'beyond' Arda, he did not have the guile to think in terms of something so mundane as "disguise".

No, I didn't really suppose that Gandalf was deliberately springing a surprise on them. But the passage still seems strange to me. Some of his features may have been visible, but they were still hooded and those that were visible were hidden under his brows. Since the Three Hunters recognise him almost immediately when he casts of his grey rags and hood, I would surmise that he was unrecognisable up to that point. And, deliberately so, it would seem. Why else would he wear grey rags and a hood?

As for the way in which he addresses them as strangers, my initial reaction, too, was that he could not recall them (just as he could not, at first recall the name Gandalf). But this does not square with him making straight for them. Why would he purposefully make towards them, up a narrow stone stair in a cliff face, if he did not know who they were? Indeed, he seems to have been following them through Fangorn. He knows, before meeting with them, that they have been tracking two small hobbits, whom he knows to be Merry and Pippin. Indeed, the whole of his speech concerning Merry and Pippin, before he reveals himself, seems to have a deliberately mysterious air about it.

Perhaps your explanation is the correct one. It certainly seems to be the only logical one which does not involve some intention to mislead on Gandalf's part. But it still does not sit entirely easily with me.

[davem]

Why didn't they recognise the 'resurrected' Gandalf? I suppose there could be some reference to the appearance of the risen Jesus to some of his followers on the road to Emaus in Luke:

'And beholde, two of them went that same daye to a toune, whych was from Jerusalem about thre scoore forlonges, called Emaus, and they talked togedder of all thinges which had happened, And it chaunsed, as they commened togedder, and reasoned, that Jesus hymsilfe drue neare, and went with them. Bur their eyes were holden, that they coulde not knowe hym...

And it cam to passe as he sate at meate wyth them, he toke breed and blessed yt, and brake ytt and gave it unto them. And their eyes were openned. And they knewe hym.

Maybe the eyes' of the 'Three Hunters' were 'holden' in the same way.....

[The Saucepan Man]

Indeed, davem. The similarity there is striking. But why were the eyes of the Three Hunters "holden"? It serves only to precipitate their attack upon Gandalf (apart, of course, from the literary device of heightening the tension).

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:

I've perhaps always just taken Gandalf at his word when he says that he is no longer Gandalf the Grey -- i.e. he truly is a new person or being: Gandalf the White is Saruman as he was meant to be. Given that he is literally a new person, it would make sense that he has forgotten much that was close to Gandalf the Grey, who died in Moria.

Now this is an interesting point. What does it mean to say that Gandalf the White is a "new person"? An entirely new person, as distinct from Gandalf the Grey as is Aragorn or Frodo? Surely not. He is called by the same name, he has the memories of Gandalf the Grey (even if here they are at first distant or difficult to access), and he largely acts like Gandalf the Grey. But if not a wholly distinct person, then what?

To put it another way, surely the spirit, the eala, of Gandalf the White is the same entity as that of Gandalf the Grey. If so, then it seems to me that the changes seen in his character after his death and return should be viewed in the same way that we view ordinary character development. He has had certain extraordinary experiences, and they have changed him in certain ways - just as Frodo, for example, undergoes a much slower process of change over the course of the novel.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Perhaps we have here another example of Osanwe? Gandalf summons Shadowfax 'in thought' (as Aragorn will later summon the Dunedain. Of course this opens something of a can of worms - does Shadowfax have a 'soul'? Is he capable of Osanwe himself?

In regard to "summoning" horses, here's an excerpt from UT: A Description of Numenor:

In Numenor all joruneyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Numenoreans, both men and women, took delight, and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing then nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone.

This is in reference to the Numenoreans, but if they could do it, so could Gandalf, I'm sure. There was certainly love enough between him and Shadowfax.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

To put it another way, surely the spirit, the eala, of Gandalf the White is the same entity as that of Gandalf the Grey. If so, then it seems to me that the changes seen in his character after his death and return should be viewed in the same way that we view ordinary character development. He has had certain extraordinary experiences, and they have changed him in certain ways - just as Frodo, for example, undergoes a much slower process of change over the course of the novel.

This is of course a very good point. While it's always tempting to go off on flights of thought about what strange reasons there might be for the change in Gandalf there is also the fact that he has gone through intense trauma which would by its nature change him ireevocably, just as it did Frodo. So why would we view Frodo's chages on a more 'worldly' level? I suppose the difference is that Gandalf is one of the Maiar and so we tend to view him on that level, while Frodo is a 'mere' mortal, so we view his changes thorugh our own perceptions and understanding. Gandalf is different, so we have to think differently to understand his changes. Or do we?

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

This is in reference to the Numenoreans, but if they could do it, so could Gandalf, I'm sure. There was certainly love enough between him and Shadowfax.

That's a nice quote you picked up on. I think that the Numenoreans in some way represented the 'heights' of mortal kind, how far they could get to and what was achieveable - at least those of Numenor who were on the side of 'good'. I think that it is entirely possible that such Numenoreans were aware of and could use the skills of osanwe in much the same way as the Elves did. Perhaps they were able to tune into this and speak to their horses in this way.

On a more worldly level, when I read about Gandalf's ability to speak with Shadowfax and train him to his calling I often think of tales of 'horse-whisperers', who are able to take what to all intents and purposes is a wild horse (and they are very temperamental, sensitive creatures) and by way of words and gestures, effectively 'tame' it.

[Lalwendë]

I'm not replying to myself here. No, I have a new thought, though a slightly odd one. Almost as soon as I woke up this morning I started wondering if Gandalf, if he was 'reborn' as Gandalf the White, would still be a keen smoker? I thought - surely he wouldn't be a smoker at all, if he has trouble thinking of the name he has commonly gone by in Middle Earth, then why would he still have a pipe-weed habit? Yet there is one reference to him requesting pipe-weed after his resurrection:

'That is just what we should like, too,' said Gandalf. 'We are not tired. We have been taking things easy. We were wet, cold and hungry, but all that you have cured. Come, sit down! And if you have any pipe-weed, we'll bless you.'

and in HoME an earlier draft has Gandalf add:

Ours has long since been finished

Which means he was including himself in the request.

This is on the return to Bree in RotK. I then decided (by way of scientific comparison or something similar) to compare this to references to Gandalf's habit in FotR and I could find just four references. So there isn't a huge difference, and this could possibly be accounted for by the lack of pipe-weed in the southern lands where much of the action takes place.

Yes, an odd thing to think of, but surely he wouldn't have retained the habit?