LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 05 - The White Rider

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

To put it another way, surely the spirit, the eala, of Gandalf the White is the same entity as that of Gandalf the Grey. If so, then it seems to me that the changes seen in his character after his death and return should be viewed in the same way that we view ordinary character development. He has had certain extraordinary experiences, and they have changed him in certain ways - just as Frodo, for example, undergoes a much slower process of change over the course of the novel.

This is of course a very good point. While it's always tempting to go off on flights of thought about what strange reasons there might be for the change in Gandalf there is also the fact that he has gone through intense trauma which would by its nature change him ireevocably, just as it did Frodo. So why would we view Frodo's chages on a more 'worldly' level? I suppose the difference is that Gandalf is one of the Maiar and so we tend to view him on that level, while Frodo is a 'mere' mortal, so we view his changes thorugh our own perceptions and understanding. Gandalf is different, so we have to think differently to understand his changes. Or do we?

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

This is in reference to the Numenoreans, but if they could do it, so could Gandalf, I'm sure. There was certainly love enough between him and Shadowfax.

That's a nice quote you picked up on. I think that the Numenoreans in some way represented the 'heights' of mortal kind, how far they could get to and what was achieveable - at least those of Numenor who were on the side of 'good'. I think that it is entirely possible that such Numenoreans were aware of and could use the skills of osanwe in much the same way as the Elves did. Perhaps they were able to tune into this and speak to their horses in this way.

On a more worldly level, when I read about Gandalf's ability to speak with Shadowfax and train him to his calling I often think of tales of 'horse-whisperers', who are able to take what to all intents and purposes is a wild horse (and they are very temperamental, sensitive creatures) and by way of words and gestures, effectively 'tame' it.

[Lalwendë]

I'm not replying to myself here. No, I have a new thought, though a slightly odd one. Almost as soon as I woke up this morning I started wondering if Gandalf, if he was 'reborn' as Gandalf the White, would still be a keen smoker? I thought - surely he wouldn't be a smoker at all, if he has trouble thinking of the name he has commonly gone by in Middle Earth, then why would he still have a pipe-weed habit? Yet there is one reference to him requesting pipe-weed after his resurrection:

'That is just what we should like, too,' said Gandalf. 'We are not tired. We have been taking things easy. We were wet, cold and hungry, but all that you have cured. Come, sit down! And if you have any pipe-weed, we'll bless you.'

and in HoME an earlier draft has Gandalf add:

Ours has long since been finished

Which means he was including himself in the request.

This is on the return to Bree in RotK. I then decided (by way of scientific comparison or something similar) to compare this to references to Gandalf's habit in FotR and I could find just four references. So there isn't a huge difference, and this could possibly be accounted for by the lack of pipe-weed in the southern lands where much of the action takes place.

Yes, an odd thing to think of, but surely he wouldn't have retained the habit?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...surely he wouldn't have retained the habit?

Not if he wanted his robes, hair, fingernails, etc. to stay white!

[Evisse the Blue]

Only a few random thoughts, in their 'raw' form, starting from a passage in this chapter:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair , my enemy was my only hope and I pursued him, clutching at his heel."

(Gandalf)

Now there are a couple of things that made me read this part a couple of times over. First, it's this morbid curiosity about the 'nameless things' that 'gnaw' (*shudder*) at the roots of the earth and of which even Gandalf is afraid. In fact, he is more afraid of these things than of the Balrog.
Why does he not want to speak of them? Is it because he wants to shorten his tale? Because he did not want to 'scare' Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas? (highly unlikely) Maybe because the 'nameless things' are not to be named, or described, according to the old superstitions? Anyway his brief report is much more chilling than if he were to describe in detail what he saw. The fact that even Sauron knows these things not, means that they were probably creatures brought by Melkor at the beginning of Arda, before even Elves awoke. Are they intelligent beings then, like the Balrog? Or merely beasts, like the Watcher in the Water? Why did they not attack Gandalf? They would most probably be there still, even after Sauron was destroyed and will continue to be there until the end of the world. A new warning for those who would venture too deep in Moria...

Secondly, I can't help but wonder why did the Balrog 'fled into the dark tunnels', and not finished the battle with Gandalf right where they started it. Did he want to lure Gandalf deeper into the tunnels known only by him, because he thought he had a better chance of defeating him there? But - did Gandalf really defeate the Balrog, since they both met a similar fate? The difference was that Gandalf was sent back (by the Valar?) to fight for the forces of the good "until his task is done". If Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas were not so confused with the constant turnabouts of events and exhausted by their journey, they would have guessed in these words of Gandalf's that their quest was meant to end well. The Powers that Be had already decided that. What would have been the reason to send Gandalf back only to fail? Gandalf knows it, though he never says it plainly, but speaks in riddles:

"We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned."

[davem]

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.''

I just googled these:

"In Norse mythology, Yggdrasil ("The Terrible One's Horse"), also called the World Tree, is the giant ash tree that links and shelters all the worlds. Beneath the three roots the realms of Asgard, Jotunheim, and Niflheim are located. Three wells lie at its base: the Well of Wisdom (Mímisbrunnr), guarded by Mimir; the Well of Fate (Urdarbrunnr), guarded by the Norns; and the Hvergelmir (Roaring Kettle), the source of many rivers.

Four deer run across the branches of the tree and eat the buds; they represent the four winds. There are other inhabitants of the tree, such as the squirrel Ratatosk ("swift teeth"), a notorious gossip, and Vidofnir ("tree snake"), the golden cock that perches on the topmost bough. The roots are gnawed upon by Nidhogg and other serpents. On the day of Ragnarok, the fire giant Surt will set the tree on fire".

and:

"In Norse myth, Nidhogg ("tearer of corpses") is a monstrous serpent that gnaws almost perpetually at the deepest root of the World Tree Yggdrasil, threatening to destroy it. The serpent is always bickering with the eagle that houses in the top of the tree. Nidhogg lies on Nastrond in Niflheim and eats corpses to sustain itself. It is not the only serpent whose task it is to destroy the World Tree; other serpents include Graback, Grafvolluth, Goin and Moin."

These serpents are not nameless, of course, but they do gnaw at the 'roots' of the World Tree...

There's also an eagle involved. And I do begin to wonder about the similarity between Ratatosk & Radaghast

[Lhunardawen]

First of all, just a tiny observation.

Thus it was that I found you but lately gone. I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay.

I have always thought that somehow, Lothlorien derived its name from Lorien, the place where the Vala Irmo and his wife Estë dwells...a place of rest and healing. Now I know that indeed, Lothlorien was fashioned to be like Lorien, only the former is in Middle Earth and is ruled by the Elves Galadriel and Celeborn.

I know that this chapter is supposed to be about Gandalf, but I couldn't resist. The chapter tells so much about Aragorn and his future kingship.

"Yes, we will set out together. But I do not doubt that you will come there before me, if you wish." (Aragorn)

Aragorn was talking about their arrival in Rohan, but is this not reminiscent of what happened some place else? Yup, you got it. Minas Tirith.

Again, Aragorn was revealed to be a king both in body and spirit.

The grey figure of the Man, Aragorn son of Arathorn, was tall, and stern as stone, his hand upon the hilt of his sword; he looked as if some king out of the sea who stepped upon the shores of lesser men.

Gandalf, on the other hand, was shown so:

But before him [Aragorn] stooped the old figure, white, shining now as if with some light kindled within, bent, laden with years, but holding a power beyond the strength of kings.

Light. Gandalf has hope for Middle Earth, and is Middle Earht's source of hope. He also has hope that one day, the Man before him would be crowned king. A power beyond the strength of kings. Gandalf is an Ainu, who were once the rulers of the world. It is fitting so that he has a power to rival a Man's. And he it will be who would pass on the rule of Middle Earth over to a king.

But despite this, Aragorn knows his time has not yet come. He remains dependent on Gandalf:

We will go where [the White Rider] leads.

Now is that swoon-worthy or swoon-worthy?

In light of this, I recall Nilp's post in "The Bridge of Khazad-dum," about Aragorn's first crowning occuring before Gandalf's death. And there came Aragorn's first trial for kingship. He took command of the Fellowship in Gandalf's place, making decisions that the wizard was supposed to make. In "the Departure of Boromir" we saw Aragorn having to decide between two roads, and he thought that he might be making a mistake in his choice. But in this chapter, Gandalf assured him that he has made the right decision: to follow Merry and Pippin. He has even mimicked Aragorn's words, that the Ringbearer and his Quest is in their hands no longer. Aragorn has passed his first test.

But the second test is about to come. I will not mention it yet...still weeks away before the proper chapter.