Battles of the late Third Age

[Kuruharan]

One wonders why the orcs of Isengard were so stingy with their armor with regard to the Dunlendings. Well, let me rephrase that, them being orcs and all did not make them the most generous of creatures. One wonders why Saruman did not command his orcish smiths to make some armor for the Dunlendings or have them teach the Dunlendings some tricks of the trade. One of the principal weaknesses of the hillmen was their lack of armor, where in other ways they were superior fighters to the orcs. Arming them properly would seem natural. It doesn't seem that Saruman lacked the resources to do so. (Or at least I don't recall any indication of such a lack of resources).

Admittedly, the orcish armor was not the best, but in such cases some armor is better than none at all.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About the number of Saruman's forces:
While it seems reasonable to think the hobbits understated the numbers (I'd picture 50,000 plus) the 10,000+ figure seems, in the context, fairly authoratative. And it's interesting to note how others fasten on that 10,000
Merry estimate (the movies and also Forstad's atlas). Furthermore, a good case can be made for Saruman having c. 10,000 or so: the limited pool of dunlendings
to draw on, the limited geographical extent of Isengard, the need to keep a form
of secrecy (remember Gandalf being bamboozled). If so, then Saruman did, as
noted above, play a remarkably dangerous game, but , as Gandalf observed,
Sauman's one real chance was to get the Ring. With that, and a strong base and devoted and highly trained army centered on Isengard, he was in a strong position, otherwise---he's toast

I really find UT fascinating, especially, the Battles of the Fords of Isen. So, if
as JRRT opines, Rohan's defense failed conceptually, what should it have done. Given that perhaps the generally preeminent role of cavalry in history is scouting and harassing the enemy, interdicting enemy movement, etc., should Theodred have positioned early warning forces both near Isengard and about the area of the fords, with infantry preparing Helm's Deep?

[The Saucepan Man]

Quick question. Wasn't it the forces bound for Helm's Deep that Merry and Pippin observed? I thought that the Battles of the Fords of Isen had taken place some time before.

[Kuruharan]

The first one had, the second one hadn't.

I find the most curious comment in the account regards the band of Uruk-hai that chased Theodred's riders to the south after the onslaught. The Uruks vanished in the middle of the night and Tolkien made the comment that "It was not until later that they discovered whither the Uruks had gone."

I may be overlooking something very obvious (which is probably most likely) but I can't quite figure out what he means by this. I do have a pet theory though.

A look at the timeline shows that it is possible that this was none other than Mauhur's "lads" who then marched north to meet up with Ugluk. Although how Ugluk knew they were there is a matter for some speculation. It was probably in the plans, but that seems like an overly complex plan relying heavily on happenstance. Of course, then we get to the puzzle of trying to figure out Ugluk's movements, which is a pretty futile exercise. But, then again, it is just a pet theory.

Anyway, a few other general observations.

I find it very curious that Theodred's scouts knew of the Isengarder troop concentrations but failed to discover the prepared positions. That points to some sloppy reconnaissance.

I am still puzzled as to why the eastern garrison broke so easily. The garrison that Theodred had left behind had not moved and should have been in a position to receive an attack.

Also, those riders of Theodred who were driven to the south that I mentioned above had some rudiments of hardiness because not only did they return to the fords after being driven off, they returned expecting to find the enemy in position and they intended to fight!

[Rumil]

Hi again,

lots of interesting points here, I agree with Kuruharan that Saruman could have equipped the Dunlendings with armour. I've always seen the Dunlendings as similar to the 'Barbarians' who fought the Early Imperial Romans, ie Britons, Gauls, Germans and Dacians. Mostly these warriors were unarmoured, though their cheifs and cavalry certainly wore armour and they had the technology to make decent chain mail, probably its a question of economics as chainmail is time consuming and expensive to make. Maybe there's a cultural aspect too. Strangely the wearing of hats amongst the Dacians was a mark of nobility, perhaps armour was only reserved for the Dunlending nobles and not allowed to the 'commoners'? Another thing is that the armour point is based on one of Christopher Tolkien's 'Author's notes', not sure how canonical this makes them, maybe one of the 'canonicity-heads' could comment? Nice point too on the mysterious fate of the missing batallion of Uruk-Hai, Mauhur's lads sound like good candidates. will have to read up before we move onto Eomer's battle.


Ah, Saucepan Man, you're quite right, I wasn't making myself completely clear, in the second post I was considering the total size of all Saruman's forces, as the hobbits saw them leaving Isengard on the way to the Second Battle of the Isen and Helm's Deep. Tuor, I also found that Gandalf had asked Treebeard for help with 10,000 or so orcs, meaning the forces at Helm's Deep. You can usually trust Gandalf for this sort of thing, but maybe he wasn't counting the men and wolves here? Anyway I guess this will be expanded upon over the next two subjects.

I'd agree that the scouting abilities of Rohirrim appear really poor in this battle, no doubt the mist contributed, was this maybe a 'device' instigated by Saruman?

On the eastern force, I can only speculate that the 3 eoreds and the levies were stationed south-east of the ford and were carried away by the rout of Theodred's cavalry returning over the ford, who were surprsed and caught in the flank. As you say, after the pursuing Isengarders drew off, these forces showed their courage by their willingness to return to the fight. I guess the cavalry mostly survived the fighting, but the levy foot might well have been sadly massacred.

As to what the Rohirrim could have done, I guess the first thing is to 'get there fastest with the mostest', they had a powerful army and if it had all ben mobilised and perhaps caught Saruman's forces on the plains of Rohan, I doubt that Saruman could have won, even if he did have significantly more than 10,000 troops. Shows you how important Wormtongue was!

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Rumil

... I'd agree that the scouting abilities of Rohirrim appear really poor in this battle, no doubt the mist contributed, was this maybe a 'device' instigated by Saruman?

On the eastern force, I can only speculate that the 3 eoreds and the levies were stationed south-east of the ford and were carried away by the rout of Theodred's cavalry returning over the ford, who were surprsed and caught in the flank. As you say, after the pursuing Isengarders drew off, these forces showed their courage by their willingness to return to the fight. I guess the cavalry mostly survived the fighting, but the levy foot might well have been sadly massacred.

As to what the Rohirrim could have done, I guess the first thing is to 'get there fastest with the mostest', they had a powerful army and if it had all ben mobilised and perhaps caught Saruman's forces on the plains of Rohan, I doubt that Saruman could have won, even if he did have significantly more than 10,000 troops. Shows you how important Wormtongue was!

I think the Rohirrim's overall tactic was flawed from the beginning. Did they not realize Sarumann could send forces down the east side of the river from Isengard? This in itself makes the Fords somewhat indefensable. Of course this was never a problem in history, with Sarumann at one time friendly, and before that, Isengard was a fortress of Gondor.

On the second Battle of the Fords, I think a solid command structure was missing, due in part to Theoden's state of mind, and the death of Theodred in the first battle. Both Battle of the Isen were solid victories for Sarumann.

[Aiwendil]

Regarding the Dunlendings:

. . . many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized the kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Numenoreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with the enemies of Numenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings ("Of Dwarves and Men", HoMe XII).

So they are neither barbarians nor Numenoreans, but descendants of those of the second house of the Edain who did not go to Numenor.