What ain't there and ought to be.

[Nuranar]

I just now ran across this thread, and after reading the first few posts something occurred to me. The majority of the posts since then have been fascinating but slightly above me, at least at the moment... So please forgive me for using my dos pesetas to drag this back to the top!

One thing that ain't in the Shire and ought to be is grave yards. There are hobbit holes, lanes, gardens, a museum even, and of course lots of inns; there are mills and towers and trees and party fields and pipeweed; but no grave yards.

....What's going on then? Is Tolkien being unrealistic? Are there truly no cemeteries in the Shire? That can't be, because we have deaths listed in the family trees of Appendix C. So obviously there are graveyards in the Shire - we just never come across one.

Why not?

Tolkien modeled the Shire after the English countryside of his childhood, correct? Well, my understanding, from a variety of well-known English authors, is that English graveyards aren't plunked down in random places next to a discreetly harmonious funeral home, as they are here. By and large, they are adjoining the village church. In fact, I don't recollect even reading the term "graveyard"; "churchyard" appears the preferred term.

Set aside what Tolkien may - or may not - have intended about hobbit, human, and Elf natures. To me, the near lack of organized religion in Middle-Earth cannot be an accident. So how would he work in a graveyard, if there was no church? As it stands, the Shire is a tolerable reflection of the countryside. There's no hole in the landscape without a church; subconsciously filled in or not, it's up to the reader. But what if he included information on hobbit burial customs, while keeping religion out of the picture? For me, that would be jarring my picture of the Shire. A graveyard without a church? How can that be England?

I don't think I'm expressing my thoughts well at all. I'm hampered, of course, by knowing absolutely nothing of the English countryside first-hand. But I do believe this is an aspect that was overlooked in the earlier discussions. Just imagine a painting of the countryside (even in America - I've got one in mind); then take out the church on the hill, but leave the graveyard. Now, that would jar me. Without the context of organized religion, I submit that an English graveyard would be surreal in the Shire.

Humbly,
Nuranar

[littlemanpoet]

Humble nothing, Nuranar, you're "spot on", as The Saucepan Man would say. I know this is going to sound awfully cheeky, but I knew Tolkien couldn't put graveyards (or churchyards) in the Shire because they are indeed associated with churches in his beloved West Midlands. I didn't want to mention it because I wanted someone else to.

Okay. So Tolkien couldn't put it in because it wouldn't work. So how about a little assistance to the professor? Let's imagine that we're subcreating for him because he's delegated this tiny task to us. How should it be done? What would the burial customs be in the Shire for pre-religious hobbits? Any ideas?

For that matter, what about handfasting (marriage) customs? What would they have been?

yours most recklessly, LMP

[davem]

Originally Posted by LmP

What would the burial customs be in the Shire for pre-religious hobbits? Any ideas?

Well, the question assumes that Hobbits were 'pre-religious', which I think is wrong. I can't think of any human society which didn't/doesn't have some form of religious belief. If anything is missing from the Shire which ought to be there its that. The Hobbits must have had some form of spirituality, because all human societies do. People think that way - we're all looking for some explanation of life & death, some answer to the question of why there's anything, & where it all came from. Its the old 'God-shaped hole' thing.

So, we would have to work out what hobbit beliefs were before we could answer your question about what form their burial or marriage customs would take.

I think we'd have to assume some form of 'natural religion', because there was no 'revealed' religion available for them to adopt. The point is they aren't 'savages'. They live in a structured society, & have a strong moral sense.

Do they have inherited 'Archetypes'? Do they 'mythologise'? If they are Children of Eru wouldn't there be some innate sense of the Divine, the numinous, which came out naturally?

I suspect Tolkien knew this was inevitable, but simply culdn't find a way to integrate it into his story. All humans tell stories. Stories 'grow in the telling' & become legends, which develop into myths, or more accurately into religious belief. It happens - it always has.

But I think, as Tolkien said, the religious element has been taken up into the story itself. In other words, in a sense, the story is a religious one. I'm struggling here, but its like the way many of Jesus parables don't mention God at all. Many are mundane, but the parable itself is 'religious' - the 'religion' is contained in the story, even though the story doesn't mention God. And it doesn't mention God because its intended to give an experience of God - which might sound contradictory, but isn't, because the intent is to open the mind to the experience of the Divine, not to talk about it.

The Divine is present in the Shire, in our experience of it, so in a sense any mention of religious practice in the Shire would get between us & the Divine. I find a greater sense of the spiritual comes through in LotR than in the Sil for this very reason - the Sil writings talk a lot about Eru & the Valar & the afterlife - the great religious questions are dealt with. LotR, on the other hand hardly mentions religion at all, but the Divine shines through every page.

So, 'absorbed into the story' - as it should be, if its to be communicated...

[Michael Wilhelmson]

The Rohirrim and Simirillion both give songs and phrases that seem to pertain to certain dieties. In fact, these "gods" are the patron Valar of these races. I don't mean to presume, but I would think that the hobbits would have adopted some beliefs from the Arnor kings at Evendim, and the rest from the secular-ish Rohirrim when they lived in the Gap. This is probably a mixture of earth mythology and lore, Numenorean fath, and Middle-folk patronage.

PS: (What about "Scouring of the Shire"? In that chapter, it clearly mentions the sand pits that the Big Men and Saruman are buried in, as well as burial mounds for the fallen militiamen at the battle)