Numenor, Westward Movement, and Lust for Immortality - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 01-24-2005, 03:32 PM

Tolkien was enamored of the tale of St. Brendan, which is wrapped up in the Hy Brasil myth, as davem points out.

There is also Tolkien's Atlantis "nightmare", dream, what have you - the green wave - from which derives his Numenor mythology.

Both these legends have to do with western seas.

It is interesting to me that the one exception (in the First Age) is the coming of the Noldor, Eastwards, out of the West. The Numenoreans are the second instance (though not an exception, having arrived from the West to establish empire in the 2nd age, not the 1st).

Historically, the oldest civilizations are in the Far East. Population growth has been enormous there compared to the west (such as Europe) for thousands of years. Since before the Roman Empire, there has been pressure on barbaric tribes to push westwards. Why Europe never developed Empire until after the medieval era, may have much to do with the land being good and the people being relatively stable (if not content) with their lot.

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 01-24-2005, 04:27 PM

I never thought of the return of the Noldor or the flight of the Numenoreans as contrary to the pattern of the highest races moving westward. The Noldor and the Numenoreans are both in mid-fall, one might even say at their lowest points (after the Kinslaying and the Rebellion of Ar-Pharazon) when they head Eastward. And after their Eastward journey both races go into a decline and never reachieve their former glory.

Did I misunderstand you, though, LMP?

Sophia

Encaitare · 01-25-2005, 03:18 PM

Just a small thought pertaining to something davem said earlier, about ancient cultures seeing the path of the sun as a life cycle:

The ancient Egyptians viewed the sun's path as such; they believed that the sun god Ra was born every morning and died every night. Therefore, they viewed west as the direction of the dead, and so they built all their pyramids and tombs on the west bank of the Nile. But, they also believed that they would never truly die since they were going to have this wonderful afterlife... perhaps their very own "version" of the Undying Lands?

littlemanpoet · 01-25-2005, 03:57 PM

The Noldor as exceptions to the westward direction, are, is indeed an exceptional event, coming on the breath of oath and crimes against Elvendom, as it were. Besides, they didn't exactly establish empire when the reached Beleriand. Rather, they laid claim to empty land and split it between various separate hereditary kingdoms.

The Numenoreans did establish empire, and only in the waning of their culture and wisdom (if not power).

Was this not true of Rome, though, too? It could be said that the heart of Rome had left Rome by 14 B.C., could it not? I don't know enough about China to comment intelligently on that comparison. Seems like a completely different kettle of fish.

01-24-2005, 04:27 PM	#2
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,780	Eastward ho. I never thought of the return of the Noldor or the flight of the Numenoreans as contrary to the pattern of the highest races moving westward. The Noldor and the Numenoreans are both in mid-fall, one might even say at their lowest points (after the Kinslaying and the Rebellion of Ar-Pharazon) when they head Eastward. And after their Eastward journey both races go into a decline and never reachieve their former glory. Did I misunderstand you, though, LMP? Sophia __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

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01-24-2005, 03:32 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Tolkien was enamored of the tale of St. Brendan, which is wrapped up in the Hy Brasil myth, as davem points out. There is also Tolkien's Atlantis "nightmare", dream, what have you - the green wave - from which derives his Numenor mythology. Both these legends have to do with western seas. It is interesting to me that the one exception (in the First Age) is the coming of the Noldor, Eastwards, out of the West. The Numenoreans are the second instance (though not an exception, having arrived from the West to establish empire in the 2nd age, not the 1st). Historically, the oldest civilizations are in the Far East. Population growth has been enormous there compared to the west (such as Europe) for thousands of years. Since before the Roman Empire, there has been pressure on barbaric tribes to push westwards. Why Europe never developed Empire until after the medieval era, may have much to do with the land being good and the people being relatively stable (if not content) with their lot.

01-25-2005, 03:18 PM	#3
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Just a small thought pertaining to something davem said earlier, about ancient cultures seeing the path of the sun as a life cycle: The ancient Egyptians viewed the sun's path as such; they believed that the sun god Ra was born every morning and died every night. Therefore, they viewed west as the direction of the dead, and so they built all their pyramids and tombs on the west bank of the Nile. But, they also believed that they would never truly die since they were going to have this wonderful afterlife... perhaps their very own "version" of the Undying Lands?

01-25-2005, 03:57 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	The Noldor as exceptions to the westward direction, are, is indeed an exceptional event, coming on the breath of oath and crimes against Elvendom, as it were. Besides, they didn't exactly establish empire when the reached Beleriand. Rather, they laid claim to empty land and split it between various separate hereditary kingdoms. The Numenoreans did establish empire, and only in the waning of their culture and wisdom (if not power). Was this not true of Rome, though, too? It could be said that the heart of Rome had left Rome by 14 B.C., could it not? I don't know enough about China to comment intelligently on that comparison. Seems like a completely different kettle of fish.