LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 07 - Helm's Deep

[Mithalwen]

Well I don't know how Gimli could have possibly beat Legolas given that Legolas:
a, had a head start
b, had hands that move quicker than sight
c, was shooting/kniving people which has to be quicker than an axe ehich you have to swing....
d, had couple of feet height advantage on the dwarf and the enemy...

Methinks Legolas thresw the contest....

[davem]

Flaming swords

I just found this from Websters 1913 dictionary:

\Brand\, n. [OE. brand, brond, AS. brand brond brand,
sword, from byrnan, beornan, to burn; akin to D., Dan., Sw.,
& G. brand brand, Icel. brandr a brand, blade of a sword.
[root]32. See {Burn}, v. t., and cf. {Brandish}.]
threw it
on a matted roof. --Palfrey.

2. A sword, so called from its glittering or flashing
brightness. [Poetic] --Tennyson.

Paradise, so late their happy seat, Waved over by
that flaming brand. --Milton.

So there is clearly an ancient connection between swords & fire. In Frodo's song of Gandalf in Lorien he refers to Gandalf's 'burning brand'. I can't help speculating on Tolkien's inspiration for the glowing Elvish swords that run through the Legendarium. Anduril is the Flame of the West, & the name is probably significant. We have to remember that Anduril's 'fire' is clearly seen in battle at close quarters, from a distance & is easily recognised by all observers. I don't think we can simply dismiss the possibility that it did produce some form of light...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Not so with Middle-earth: the magic of that world can only be experienced by us, in our non-magical reality, in a distant and secondary way – metaphor becomes a poor substitute for the magical reality we are reading about.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Now I could be wrong - maybe the sword really is on fire. But clearly it is at least possible (and, I think, probable) that the statement is not literally true.

Originally Posted by davem

We have to remember that Anduril's 'fire' is clearly seen in battle at close quarters, from a distance & is easily recognised by all observers. I don't think we can simply dismiss the possibility that it did produce some form of light...

Even here we cannot say if the image of Anduril flaming is a metaphor or not. It could be metaphor within the story, within that world but presented to us as real magic, or it could be the other way around, real magic in Middle Earth which we cannot comprehend so is presented to us as metaphor! This is one of the reasons I like Tolkien's writing so much; it is befuddling and even a few words can be turned about until we can find a meaning. We have read so far into this tale and have seen so many unbelievable things that the idea of a sword which flames is not one we are able to entirely disbelieve. If this had happened in The Shire, in the first few chapters, then we would say "that is definitely a metaphor", but now we've gone far beyond that, and are deep into the realms of myth so we can't just dismiss it.

I think this is why the Balrog wings debate is so strong; at that point we are in the changeover from the comfortable into the unfamiliar. At Helm's Deep we are quite out of our comfort zone so the image of a flaming sword is one we can't quite grasp. I like this, as it means we can read the text in many ways, just as we can read mythology in many ways. Interpretation comes into play, and I find that fascinating and rewarding. I like to think that the image could be both real and metaphor, both at once, depending on how we see it, just as it might appear in different ways to those actually involved in the battle itself.

Originally Posted by Fordim

Ah, Derrida would be happy. . .the more you try to make sense of it, the more the text deconstructs on you.

Isn't that the whole reason for the 'Downs? To drive us all deeper into madness as we chew over every last morsel?

[davem]

More on Anduril: (from Encyclopedia of Arda)

Details of the original forging of Elendil's sword are difficult to determine. It was made by Telchar of Nogrod, who also made the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin. Helpfully, a passage in Unfinished Tales tells us that the Dragon-helm was originally made for Azaghâl of Belegost, who died in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad in I 471; in order to make the helm specifically for Azaghâl, Telchar must have been working at about this time. Though we can't be certain of Narsil's origins, then, we can fairly safely place its forging in Telchar's workshop in Nogrod, probably during the fourth or fifth centuries of the First Age.

The Sword was broken in the War of the Last Alliance, with the fall of Elendil. Its burning light was lost, but Elendil's son Isildur used its broken shards to cut the Ruling Ring from Sauron's finger. The shards were eventually brought to Imladris, and they became an heirloom of the House of Isildur. During the War of the Ring, the sword was reforged, its light was rekindled, and it was borne by Elendil's distant descendant Aragorn, who renamed it Andúril.

Under Telchar we also get the following information:

A Dwarf of Nogrod in the Blue Mountains, and one of the greatest smiths in the history of Middle-earth. Among his works were Angrist (the knife that freed the Silmaril from the Iron Crown), Narsil (the sword of Elendil, later reforged for Aragorn as Andúril) and the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin.

Its interesting to speculate on whether Gimli's words:

'Well, if it has Anduril to keep it company, my axe may stay here, too, without shame.'

are a reference to Anduril's Dwarfish origin.

Even more interesting is the fact that a dwarf made a sword which 'glowed'. We know Elvish blades like Sting, Glamdring & Orcrist shone when Orcs were near, but does this show that the Dwarves had access to the same 'technology'. Had they learned it from the Elves, or the Elves from them? Or were Sting, Glamdring & Orcrist also os Dwarvish make?

Whatever, I think we have to acccept that Anduril, the Flame of the West, did shine, literally, not 'metaphorically'. (Thanks must go to my 'researcher' in this, Lalwende )

(p.s. just remembered the line from 'Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Nirnoediad:

'The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds;' )

[Lathriel]

The Idea of the metaphors is very interesting because I never thought of it that way.

As soon as I begin to read LOTR I am in ME and I never question these things. I just take everything Tolkien writes as it is. If he says the sword of the Nazgul is surrounded by flame I picture that way.

For me it is not difficult to do this because I seperate myself from the real world and am completely submerged in the fantasy world. Of course this is really easy with ME.

As has been said before there is an almost historical feel to LOTR. This is why I even believe that Legolas and Gimli were able to kill so many orcs. I just don't think about the possible and inpossible anymore. Especially with this Chapter Helm's deep. the description of it all is so accurate I don't question it.

This is just one of the chapters that shows that LOTR is a master piece because I just believe everything.

[Lhunardawen]

With Gandalf again gone, Aragorn is subject to his second test in preparation for his kingship. First, he builds more on his relationship with Eomer and Theoden, to strengthen the ties of alliance between Gondor and Rohan in the future. Yes, Aragorn has been in Rohan before, serving under Thengel, Theoden's father (oh my, I actually forgot his name then!) - but now this is a different king, and a more dangerous time. It is also in Aragorn's fighting alongside the Rohirrim that Gondor somehow aids Rohan in its war.

Also, just before this chapter, it is usually Gandalf who speaks to Theoden while the others just listen on. Now it is Aragorn's turn to do the conversing.

Secondly, this is his chance to "practice" for the larger battle that is to come. Anduril has been sheathed for so long, and here it gets to do its thing again. Ditto for Gimli's ax and Legolas' bow and knife.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I don’t think this is that incredible.

Húrin’s killing of seventy trolls (or a hundred Orcs) I find more incredible, him being all alone, and all. But remember, Morgoth said that Húrin should be taken alive, and this is the greatest warrior of Men. Now that I think of it, it becomes less and less incredible.

Now, we turn to the Helm’s Deep non-Men. Remember, they were in a protected place, supported by war-worthy Men.

Legolas uses a bow, a long-range weapon. With his first salvo he killed twenty. I think his quiver would have held that much. Then he killed four with knife-work. Well, he was almost surely supported by the knives of Rohirrim archers—probably with some Rohirrim swordsmen. Then we don’t hear of any more kills until he reached thirty-nine, when he sent the first Orc behind Aragorn to the Void. Before that he was perhaps obtaining arrows shot by the Orcs at them—after all, they are of almost the same size as his Galadhrim-issue. His last two kills may be arrows gleaned the same way, or less probably, knife.

Now we turn to Gimli. His first two kills was recorded. Nothing incredible about that. Then he kills nineteen after the first breakthrough via the culvert. But in this attack he was supported by Gamling and the Men of Westfold. Then we never hear of him again until he killed twenty-one more Orcs when he retreated to Aglarond. He was supported by, of all the people, Éomer, plus some other Men. And they were in a cave, with Rohirrim as guides. Surely they would have contrived an ambush of some sort. That should be enough to account for his last kills.

I say again, it’s not that incredible.

[The Saucepan Man]

It is surprising, given that this was my favourite Chapter when I first read the book, that I have relatively little to say on it.

As far as the depiction of the battle is concerned, I do think that Aiwendil hit the nail on the head when he described it as a series of linked dramatic events (see his post #6 above). It is portrayed as a series of incidents, each involving the principal characters, linked by a general description of the battle's progress, in particular the development of the Orcs' assault. It struck me that this is similar to the way that a battle might be portrayed on film - as a series of encounters/incidents linked by overview shots of the battle. Tolkien's skill as a story-teller enables him to deploy this technique to marvellous effect in this Chapter.

Another theme that links the events of the battle, and indeed of the entire Chapter, and also parallels them is the weather. Rather than blathering on at length here about this, I will simply provide this link to my post on The Symbolic Significance of Weather.

Originally Posted by Fordim

... there is just no way that one fighter can be so overwhelmingly good that he can wipe out that many opponents. And certainly not two: either the orcs are incompetent or Gimli and Legolas are getting a bit of 'help' from the author.

Well, as others have noted, this is in keeping of the deeds of the great warriors of legend and myth. But I also think that an argument can be made out for its feasibility. It is entirely credible that Legolas would score 20 kills with his bow - 1 for each arrow in his quiver. It does require that he delivers a fatal wound with every shot, but then he is an elf. He could then easily score a further 21 kills with his knives (as a nimble and lightly armoured Elf he has an advantage over Orcs in hand-to-hand combat) and with the arrows that he picks up on the field of battle. As for Gimli, he gets his chance when the Orcs break through and later in the Deep and the caves. I see no reason why he should not be able, on occasion, to kill 2 or 3 at a time with his axe, requiring only about 20 swings of it. He is less dextrous than Legolas, although more heavily armoured, but he would have had an advantage over Orcs "in the narrows" of the Deep. Theoden says that none can force an entrance there against determined men, so it clearly had impressive defensive capabilities. All-in-all, I don't see why skilled warriors such as Legolas and Gimli should not achieve the totals that they do against the likes of Orcs. And anyway, I like their "keeping tally", so there.

Finally, this Chapter contains one of the most (unintentionally) funny lines in the book:

Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.

I wonder who was driving?