...and Gandalf suddenly had a brilliant idea of how to win the war.

[Kuruharan]

Child

I agree with the general direction of your comments that he is largely referring to the situation in the world current at that time. However, I am still a bit puzzled. The statement itself relates directly to Middle earth. Even if it was not in a letter he sent to someone, I believe it reflects some measure of his thought on the matter.

I guess the center of my perplexity (and this relates to the astute comments made by Saucepan Man) is that it almost smacks of a justification of the actions of Saruman. Admittedly, Saruman was driven for lust for the Ring into employing and breeding orcs, however, the idea of Gandalf or Aragorn going out and hiring Ugluk and crew to help fight the war seems dangerously close to seizing the great weapon of the enemy and using it against him.

There is another aspect of this and it hinges around the word "breeding." I think that if the opponents of Sauron, in an attempt to defeat him, engaged in this breeding are engaging in the same type of perversion of life that Melkor engaged in at the very beginning. In view of the phrase "most hateful to Ilúvatar" I think this might in some way be worse than seizing the Ring.

[HerenIstarion]

Matthew 7:22-23:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Still, casting out devils remains the good cause. It is means (iniquity) which is condemned, regardless the goodness of the cause. If Tolkien were to elaborate the point, though, I suppose he would not approve of Aragorn and Co involving in such activities.

In fact, he haven't appoved at all, had he? - otherwise, we would have seen ork hirelings in published LoTR, would not we?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

No. The Cause and the means of upholding it are separate. The West's Cause was to prevent Sauron's victory, which would have gone against the Will of Eru. That is a just Cause and a right one to pursue. But the means by which they seek to realise it may be right or it may be wrong.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

...the idea of Gandalf or Aragorn going out and hiring Ugluk and crew to help fight the war seems dangerously close to seizing the great weapon of the enemy and using it against him.

There is another aspect of this and it hinges around the word "breeding." I think that if the opponents of Sauron, in an attempt to defeat him, engaged in this breeding are engaging in the same type of perversion of life that Melkor engaged in at the very beginning. In view of the phrase "most hateful to Ilúvatar" I think this might in some way be worse than seizing the Ring.

There are two rights here, two responses equally agreeable. SpM is perfectly right in terms of the logic behind what Tolkien said, as he did indeed state that it was a justifiable cause. But Kuruharan is also right in terms of the moral questions this might raise, of whether any means are justified in order to achieve a 'greater good'. This is an interesting dilemma, one which can be applied to events in history such as the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without raising any arguments about those particular events here, in terms of moral complexity they are comparable to the situation in which the forces of the West might have hired or bred Orcs. The cause might be right, but would the means?

What really is interesting about this is to consider it in relation to Tolkien's own stance on technology and how it can corrupt. Surely this would go against what he held to be right? And what would be done with these Orcs once 'used' to fight the war? They are sentient beings after all, and could not be 'decommissioned'. And is Tolkien here saying that Orcs were not necessarily evil by nature? That they could be 'turned' to good? Worms...

[The Saucepan Man]

But Kuruharan is also right in terms of the moral questions this might raise, of whether any means are justified in order to achieve a 'greater good'.

But, to my mind, Tolkien is quite specific on this in no lesser manner than in his formulation of the basic plot to LotR. The Ring could have been used to defeat Sauron (by Gandalf at least, if not by others on the basis of what is said in the Letters). Yet, although the cause would have been the same, Tolkien makes it clear that it would have been wrong for the "West" to have done so. The whole philosophy of LotR is based on the proposition that it is wrong for the West to use the devices of the Enemy to defeat him (and no phantom, I still don't consider the "diversion" at the Black Gate to be akin to a device of the Enemy. )

Of course things are rarely so clear cut in real life, much as we might want them to be ...

[the phantom]

and no phantom, I still don't consider the "diversion" at the Black Gate to be akin to a device of the Enemy.

The Ring could have been used to defeat Sauron...Tolkien makes it clear that it would have been wrong for the "West" to have done so.

No. In this case it had nothing to do with it being wrong to use a weapon of the enemy. It had to do with the fact that it wouldn't have worked. That's why it was wrong. If Sauron beats the new ring bearer, evil wins. If the new bearer wins, he becomes the next Dark Lord and once again evil wins.

The "cause" was to get rid of the Dark Lord. Using the Ring against him would ensure that there would continue to be a Dark Lord, so using the ring completely defeats the cause. That's why it was wrong.

If the ring had no corrupting powers and could be wielded safely there would be no problem with using its power to overthrow Sauron.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

No. In this case it had nothing to do with it being wrong to use a weapon of the enemy. It had to do with the fact that it wouldn't have worked ... If the new bearer wins, he becomes the next Dark Lord and once again evil wins.

Well, it would have defeated Sauron, so it would have realised the original cause, even if it gave rise to another.

If the ring had no corrupting powers and could be wielded safely there would be no problem with using its power to overthrow Sauron.

The point is that it couldn't be wielded safely precisely because it was a device of the Enemy. I can think of no better illustration of the proposition that, by using a device of the Enemy, one becomes no better than him. In the case of the Ring, one does in fact replace him.

To my mind, the situations are very similar. Had one of the Wise set about a policy of breeding Orcs to defeat the existing Dark Lord, then they would be setting themselves up to be the next Dark Lord. At least that's how, in my opinion, it works in Tolkien's world.

In real life, things are a bit more complicated.

[the phantom]

The point is that it couldn't be wielded safely precisely because it was a device of the Enemy.

Okay, I get what you're saying now.

I don't completely agree though. I think the ring was a special case. If a different weapon of the enemy had fallen into the the hands of Gandalf and Elrond, let's say a catapult, then it's no big deal to use it against Sauron, right? (maybe use it to toss the Ring into Mt Doom, for those of you who've clicked on all the links on the Mortor thread )

Of course, that's not to say that breeding orcs is fine and dandy.

In real life, things are a bit more complicated.

I don't think it's always quite that simple in Middle-Earth either. That's why there are so many threads.

There is another aspect of this and it hinges around the word "breeding." I think that if the opponents of Sauron, in an attempt to defeat him, engaged in this breeding are engaging in the same type of perversion of life that Melkor engaged in at the very beginning.

Well, Kuru, I think there's a difference between breeding or hiring an army of orcs and what Melkor did. I'll take a bit out of the quote you gave earlier.

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege

What was this "highest privilege" Melkor was abusing? The power to breed things? No. The power to hire an army? No.

He was abusing his power of creation.

Morgoth created the orcs. He made them in mockery of the children of God. That's what was so evil.

If Gandalf and Aragorn had employed orc mercenaries or even bred orc armies, they still would not be guilty of creating the race of orcs. They would merely be making use of something that was already created. That is a major difference.