Gandalf's Staff

[Essex]

I was going to raise a new Thread, but had a quick hunt and found a very interesting Thread which covers a lot of the points here.

I raise this Post because of the numerous arguments over Gandalf's staff breaking in the Movie.

Apologies to the Book loving brigade who don't want to mention the movies in this section.

I agree with some of the posts above that a Wizard’s staff is mainly Symbolic. When Gandalf breaks Saruman’s staff, it is to merely show to Saruman and the watching parties that Saruman’s reign is over. Saruman still had powers (in his voice for one) that did not need a staff.

If we look at various scenes where Gandalf shows his strength of Magic, it doesn't really show him using his staff does it?

1/ Gandalf forcing back the Nazgul on the Pellenor fields WITH HIS HAND.

2/ Gandalf before fighting the Balrog on the bridge, issues a Word of Command to hold the door.

I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength… I had to speak a word of Command.

No mention of using his staff.

3/ In Frodo’s dream at Tom’s house, we see Gandalf lighting the sky with his staff on top of Orthanc. Now if a staff is meant to be THAT potent, why not use it somehow to get down from the tower (other than to send out an SOS….)

4/ When fighting the Wargs, he uses it only as a deterrent to the Wargs.

Gandalf stood up and strode forward, holding his staff aloft. 'Listen, Hound of Sauron! ' he cried. `Gandalf is here. Fly, if you value your foul skin! I will shrivel you from tail to snout, if you come within this ring.'

Notice he again uses a spell and a piece of burning wood to defeat them.

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder……Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!

5/ A KEY point. Gandalf breaks Saruman’s staff WITH HIS HAND, not his own staff. He also called back Saruman before this. The power of Gandalf is in his own hands and words, not his Staff.

'Come back, Saruman!' said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again. and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard……He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.'

Now, points where I see Gandalf actually using his staff

1/ Gandalf mentions a Word of Command to light a faggot on Caradhras. I admit here he uses his staff, but to me this is merely a conduit of his power, which was in his ‘Word’

Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command_, naur an edraith ammen!_ he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.

2/ At the gates of Moria, he tries to open the door using his staff and a spell, to no avail.

e stepped up to the rock again, and lightly touched with his staff the silver star in the middle beneath the sign of the anvil. Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen! Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen! he said in a commanding voice. The silver lines faded, but the blank grey stone did not stir.

Notice how Gandalf throws his staff on the ground when he realizes how it cannot help him.

Then he threw his staff on the ground, and sat down in silence.

In the end it is the power of a single word that opens the door. Also, he tries to re open the broken doors with his staff when they are inside, but to no avail.

3/ He DOES use his staff to light the way in Moria though….

4/ The MAIN use of his staff in the books is here

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.

So he could break the bridge using his staff, but it was destroyed in the process…..

5/ He seems to use the Staff to rid the 3 hunters of their weapons, I admit. But again, is the staff just used as a conduit of his power. Was it actually needed?

His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.

6/ Against Grima.

He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers

But he did not use his staff to ‘heal’ Theoden.

In conclusion, Gandalf’s staff, although useful, is not all empowering. HE can function well without a staff. Therefore, (and sorry to end this on a movie note), if the Witch King could destroy Gandalf’s staff does not mean he can destroy Gandalf as well.

[ohtatyaro]

Great post, Essex

To have a summary to it: (and I always felt that must be the thing) - staff iz wizard's conductor. I mean, the power is in wizard, and staff helps him conduct it, let it out

[alatar]

Great post Essex.

I would have to say though that in Tolkien's world that the Staffs are integral somehow with Wizards - i.e. a sorceror may use magic etc, but a wizard always carries a staff. And I think that we are all talking about the Five.

Somewhere in the Books, Appendices (?) there is a quote regarding wizards and a word meaning "staff-man/men." Also, is it Saruman that taunts Gandalf about getting the Keys to Orthanc and Barad-dur and the Staffs of the Five Wizards? Pretty important, those staffs seems to be.

Weren't the staffs part of the Istari's disguises? Their staffs were to help these old men appear less intimdating, as it gave them something on which to lean.

Gandalf without a staff may still be formidible, but I couldn't see him without it - it's his trademark tool, like Aragorn's sword, Legolas's bow and Gimli's axe. I would also conclude that there's something connection between the wizard, his staff and his abilities.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Somewhere in the Books, Appendices (?) there is a quote regarding wizards and a word meaning "staff-man/men." (alatar)

Perhaps you mean Gandalf:

Gandalf . . . is an actual Norse name . . . used by me [J.R.R Tolkien] since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff."

UT IV 2

[HerenIstarion]

But I can not stand a temptation

The discussion reminds me of Terry Pratchett and the song Nanny Ogg was fond of singing:

The Wizards Staff Has A Knob On Its End...

Work the rest up for yourselves

But lest the post be deleted, let us have a quick go at it from Tolkien angle as well

My belief is, that, in the first place, the staff is there at all:

A) For such is a tradition (in Western Mythology, that is) Wizard should have a staff, a cloak, hood/hat
B) For the name Gandalf was chosen, and Gandalf = Wandelf

Rest, I'll just repeat what was said - there is no need (or obligation) for the wizard to employ his power via staff (I delibirately refrain from using word 'magic' here, reasons given in numerous posts around).

To give you an analogy - the pen enhences my writing skill, but be there a pen or not, I know how to write, and I probably would find a way of writing in case of need (just it would be less refined, or more clumsy, without a pen)

Not backed up theory of mine is, however, the following:

Maiar needed staffs in case they were 'true' incarnates. Matter as an obstacle, overcome by other (and special) 'channeling' matter.

Or another analogy - as a spell (or rather a 'song' with Tolkien (or even a word, sometimes the same thing)) gives a thought a form and power to change, so the staff channels the 'sheer' power.

No time to elaborate on this, unfortunately. Maybe later

cheers

[Kuruharan]

Maiar needed staffs in case they were 'true' incarnates. Matter as an obstacle, overcome by other (and special) 'channeling' matter.

Or another analogy - as a spell (or rather a 'song' with Tolkien (or even a word, sometimes the same thing)) gives a thought a form and power to change, so the staff channels the 'sheer' power.

Who or what does your theory propose the staff channels? The Valar or the Istari's native power...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Perhaps you mean Gandalf:

Gandalf . . . is an actual Norse name . . . used by me [J.R.R Tolkien] since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff."

UT IV 2

Exactly! Thanks. I knew that I read something like that somewhere.

That's what I get for trying to do this without my book in front of me...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

That's what I get for trying to do this without my book in front of me...

Don't worry, alatar. Some of us do it all the time.

Anywhen, H-I's channelling theory looks good. For their spirit to interact with the stuff of Arda, they need bodies. For their potency to do the same, they would need a medium (cf. One Ring).

[Essex]

For their potency to do the same, they would need a medium

but not neccesarily as my posts above prove. for example, Gandalf broke Saruman's staff by raising his hand and using his voice.