the Sacred Feminine

[Neithan]

I think that both the feminine and the masculine were just different parts of Eru's mind, which I think is part of what Ka was getting at.
Just a note on feminine roles in mythology, the very first primitive civilizations often worshiped women figures (often times a women leader of the tribe) for fertility. Women are the symbol of fertility so from this came the concept of "Mother Earth". In those times these mother figures were the most important in mythology because people needed crops to survive. Later mythology was largely taken over by men (in Greek mythology mother earth's husband and later her male children gain power over her, this was probably the Greek's way of shifting from the female dominated religion to a male dominated one). In most mythologies there was still a remnent of that "mother figure" representing fertility (Demeter). In Tolkiens mythology Yavanna seems to fill this role. Of course that is not the only role in mythology for women, but it is the one role that is almost always played by a women.

[Lalaith]

Well, my own studies in this area have chiefly involved things like Robert Graves' the White Goddess (which while a bit bonkers is still very interesting stuff), I've not read this new-fangled da Vinci stuff.
But I think I understand what's being discussed now, and I think we've touched on this theme before, here:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11149

[Formendacil]

There is no exactly "sacred feminine" anymore than I should say that there is a "sacred masculine". Nothing in Arda is sacred BECAUSE of its gender, rather its gender causes it to manifest its sanctity in specific ways.

For example, Manwe and Varda are perhaps the only people in Arda who can properly be said to be "sacred". Theirs is the sacred trust of Iluvatar to govern and guide the world, and although they err in making mistakes, theirs is never willful disobedience of the will of the One. Hence, we can ascertain that they are, indeed, sacred, so to speak.

Manwe isn't the masculine personification of sacred. Rather, because he is both sacred and masculine, he exhibits his sacredness in ways that are notably masculine. Manwe is more aloof, has the final say in Arda, and is more fatherly-kinglike. These are masculine traits. Not better or worse than feminine traits, simply different.

Note that it is to Varda (Elbereth) that the Elves call at need. Why? Well, Tolkien does say that she is the one that Melkor (and thus all Evil) feared the most, but why not call on the name of Manwe as well? After all, Manwe was the Gandalf to Melkor's Sauron. He was his direct opponent. He was the King of Arda, the only one in direct contact with Iluvatar.

The reasoning, I feel, lies as much in Varda's feminine aspect as in her sacred one. If Varda can be said to be the most holy person in Arda, so too can she be said to be definitely feminine. In an ideal Catholic household (one which Tolkien would be basing his ideal of perfect), it is the father who is the head. Would it not follow that anyone frightened or in trouble would appeal to the father? On the contrary, frightened children go to mommy, in the same way that Catholics appeal to Mary. Hence, the appeals to Varda. Varda, as the sacred and the feminine and the spouse of Manwe-King-of-Arda, is the "mother" of Arda. The ultimate power rests with Manwe, but the instinctive appeals in distress are made to Varda.

Admittedly, this is getting a bit off the original topic. My point boils down to this: I do not believe in the "sacred feminine". There are females in Arda who have achieved what may be called sanctity, but there is no gender-specific sanctity, only sanctity made visible in gender-specific ways.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

There is no exactly "sacred feminine" anymore than I should say that there is a "sacred masculine". Nothing in Arda is sacred BECAUSE of its gender, rather its gender causes it to manifest its sanctity in specific ways.

For example, Manwe and Varda are perhaps the only people in Arda who can properly be said to be "sacred". Theirs is the sacred trust of Iluvatar to govern and guide the world, and although they err in making mistakes, theirs is never willful disobedience of the will of the One. Hence, we can ascertain that they are, indeed, sacred, so to speak.

Manwe isn't the masculine personification of sacred. Rather, because he is both sacred and masculine, he exhibits his sacredness in ways that are notably masculine. Manwe is more aloof, has the final say in Arda, and is more fatherly-kinglike. These are masculine traits. Not better or worse than feminine traits, simply different.

Note that it is to Varda (Elbereth) that the Elves call at need. Why? Well, Tolkien does say that she is the one that Melkor (and thus all Evil) feared the most, but why not call on the name of Manwe as well? After all, Manwe was the Gandalf to Melkor's Sauron. He was his direct opponent. He was the King of Arda, the only one in direct contact with Iluvatar.

The reasoning, I feel, lies as much in Varda's feminine aspect as in her sacred one. If Varda can be said to be the most holy person in Arda, so too can she be said to be definitely feminine. In an ideal Catholic household (one which Tolkien would be basing his ideal of perfect), it is the father who is the head. Would it not follow that anyone frightened or in trouble would appeal to the father? On the contrary, frightened children go to mommy, in the same way that Catholics appeal to Mary. Hence, the appeals to Varda. Varda, as the sacred and the feminine and the spouse of Manwe-King-of-Arda, is the "mother" of Arda. The ultimate power rests with Manwe, but the instinctive appeals in distress are made to Varda.

Admittedly, this is getting a bit off the original topic. My point boils down to this: I do not believe in the "sacred feminine". There are females in Arda who have achieved what may be called sanctity, but there is no gender-specific sanctity, only sanctity made visible in gender-specific ways.

Bravo Formendacil! Very well done.

[Mithalwen]

If I remember rightly the bodies that the valar chose to dress themselves in were chosen to reflect their inclinations. It should be remembered that they were spiritual rather than physical beings - and the use of the word spouse again is in the sense of a spiritual rather than physical union (which is why the idea of the Maiar being the offspring of the Valar was rejected). True soul mates if you will. Because the gender is a reflection of their nature rather than the nature a reflection of the gender the worship of Varda and the other valier is in a sense a worship of the sacred feminine because they are the "holies" who manifest themselves in female forms. If you look at the "interests" of the valar they do fall into broad sexual stereotypes. Most belief systems do ascribe male and female aspects to creation. Generally it is all a matter of perspective, balance and harmony.

Strange in that while I ended up saying yes and Formendacil no I think his final phrase "sanctity made visible in gender-specific ways" is more or less what I was saying too .

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Neithan

I think that both the feminine and the masculine were just different parts of Eru's mind, which I think is part of what Ka was getting at.
Just a note on feminine roles in mythology, the very first primitive civilizations often worshiped women figures (often times a women leader of the tribe) for fertility. Women are the symbol of fertility so from this came the concept of "Mother Earth". In those times these mother figures were the most important in mythology because people needed crops to survive. Later mythology was largely taken over by men (in Greek mythology mother earth's husband and later her male children gain power over her, this was probably the Greek's way of shifting from the female dominated religion to a male dominated one). In most mythologies there was still a remnent of that "mother figure" representing fertility (Demeter). In Tolkiens mythology Yavanna seems to fill this role. Of course that is not the only role in mythology for women, but it is the one role that is almost always played by a women.

BULLS EYE! Correct! That was what i was trying to explain... Unfortunately, my clock did not agree and said it was time to be out the door.

For everyone to have alittle more briefing about attibutes, the following list explains common and uncommonly aspects to either female or male...

Feminine

Left
Water, Earth
Chalice
Spring
Summer

Masculine

Right
Air, Fire
Sword
Fall
Winter

The reason why I left out the Sun and Moon is because, not all cultures can agree upon which one is a feminine repersentation or masculine. For example, the Ancient greek and Celtic cultures mostly saw the moon as feminine and the sun as masculine, while Finnish and Ancient Egypt (sometimes, depends on kingdom and current cult, ect.) saw the moon as masculine and sun visa versa. This is important to remember when you read about Middle Earth, how the sun is referred to as 'she', this is another observation of Tolkien's love for Finnish culture which he used greatly in modeling some of its attributes.

~Ka~