Gandalf's Staff

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

but not neccesarily as my posts above prove. for example, Gandalf broke Saruman's staff by raising his hand and using his voice.

Not sure. Again I wish that I had the books in front of me, but my paperbacks have been packed away somewhere by the wife and I loaned my hard cover to my brother who has taken 3+ years to arrive at Bree.

Is there a place on-line in which the text is available?

Anyway, at the time of the Saruman staff breaking, does Gandalf have his hand on his staff? I wonder if this is the case in many of the events noted by Essex.

[Essex]

alatar,

look at post #27 above which shows the text. Here is an expanded version. Trust me, it's from the book.

'Come back, Saruman!' said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again. and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw.
'I did not give you leave to go,' said Gandalf sternly. 'I have not finished. You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots. Stay then! But I warn you. you will not easily come out again. Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you. Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.'
He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet. 'Go!' said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away

This shows that it was the power of his voice (and hand if you must) that broke his sword.

IMO, what one needs to do when analysing a scene, is to think WHY Tolkien wrote it this way. What, IMO, he is doing here by writing that Gandalf raised his hand and used his voice is EXPLICITLY showing that Gandalf DOES NOT NEED TO USE HIS STAFF to cast Saruman from the Order. (If he wanted to show Gandalf was chanelling power or gaining power from his staff he would have written "raised his staff' instead of 'raised his hand') Indeed, at the start of the passage, all Gandalf needed to haul Saruman back was the power of his Voice. Tolkien is showing in this scene that Gandalf can break Saruman's staff and cast him from the Order with his own power, simple and direct, and not chanelling through any object.

PS Gandalf's staff is mentioned ONCE by Tolkien in the whole of the Voice of Saruman Chapter, and just as a door knocker!

Gandalf stood before the door of Orthanc and beat on it with his staff. It rang with a hollow sound. 'Saruman, Saruman!' he cried in a loud commanding voice. 'Saruman come forth!'

[Formendacil]

In this thread, which was on magic in general, I made this post concerning my thoughts on the staffs:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Here's a thought I had concerning the staffs of Gandalf and Saruman (and the other wizards).

Personally, I don't think that staffs were necessary to the working of Gandalf's (or any wizard's) magic. To me, this is proven by Gandalf's action against the Balrog, after the staff was broken. The staff might have been a useful tool to help disguise the user's power from ordinary men, and maybe it actually was some help in focussing the power. Who knows?

My idea is that the main purpose for the staff was as a symbol of each's wizard's commission as one of the Istari. Something like a rod of office (such as the stewards carried). The rod doesn't contain the steward's authority, it merely acts as a symbol of it. Thus, if a wizard loses his staff (or breaks it, whatever), it is sufficient to simply acquire a new one.

However, it is a very different case when Gandalf divests Saruman of his staff, and breaks it. Gandalf has been sent back as the new leader of the Istari. He is now Saruman's superior. Just as ceremonially taking back of the rod from Faramir divested him of his power as steward, so too did Gandalf's taking of Saruman's staff rob him of his power as one of the Istari.

Anyways, that's the thought I had. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

[alatar]

Thanks Essex for providing the text, and I DO trust that it is the verbatim, as anything less would be blasphemy.

Again, not to nitpick (but that's how this will appear ), but the text says nothing in regards to whether Gandalf's hand is on his staff or not. Presumably, if he were not mounted, he would have his staff in hand.

Surely you will give me something else to consider after reading the above, but in anticipation, as an example of 'item not mentioned explicitly, therefore...' I would point out that the Three Elvish rings were all in use, yet I can't remember any references such as "Elrond used his ring to" etc.

I really need to get those books out as (1) I hate trying to make a point based on memory and (2) this forum is making me want to dive in, yet again.

I like Formendacil's comments regarding the staff being a symbol of office.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

They are still physical channels of spiritual potency. I said "a medium": A staff is one of them, perhaps. But there are others, as you have proven.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples.

That's my take on those two points of this truly fascinating discussion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

Agreed. The staffs have great symbolic meaning. If Gandalf were to 'have them,' then I would take that as meaning he 'owned' or was more powerful than the Four.

And so to have a broken staff would mean what?

[Kuruharan]

It might have been even more important to break the Bridge at that point as I'm not sure that the Balrog would have wilted in the daylight.

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

[Kuruharan]

That sound you hear is the opening of a can o' worms...

While this issue may be deserving of its own thread (I'm not aware of a current one), in brief I will say I don't believe the Balrog would have left the nice, safe, dark underground because of the lure of the Ring. He could not have known of the existence of the Ring and so likely would not have understood its pull even if he felt it. He certainly does not strike me as the type to exert himself chasing after unnecessary trouble.

The Ring itself would probably not want to advertise itself too loudly because its master was Sauron and not the Balrog and it would not welcome that situation. In other words, perhaps at that moment it was purposefully not exerting a pull.

Unless you would want to suggest that the Watcher in the Water was the Balrog making an early snatch.

(Did I say in brief?)

[Kuruharan]

Why not just ignore this irksome intrusion and get back to his slumber?...Fellowship was on its way out anyway

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through? Besides, he'd just had a rock dropped on his head. He might have taken that as a token of hostile intent.

But why should the Ring not profit from finding its ways into a Balrog's hands (claws, talons, whatever)?

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

evil things are drawn to the Ring

This is true. If it weren't for the Watcher, I'd say it was more due to Sauron's particular hold over his slaves.

I don't think that it would have been beyond the wit of the Ring to find its way back to its Master via the Balrog.

Well, I am obviously of the opinion that this path was one that presented tremendous obstacles to the Ring achieving its goal.