Gandalf's Staff

[Formendacil]

In this thread, which was on magic in general, I made this post concerning my thoughts on the staffs:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Here's a thought I had concerning the staffs of Gandalf and Saruman (and the other wizards).

Personally, I don't think that staffs were necessary to the working of Gandalf's (or any wizard's) magic. To me, this is proven by Gandalf's action against the Balrog, after the staff was broken. The staff might have been a useful tool to help disguise the user's power from ordinary men, and maybe it actually was some help in focussing the power. Who knows?

My idea is that the main purpose for the staff was as a symbol of each's wizard's commission as one of the Istari. Something like a rod of office (such as the stewards carried). The rod doesn't contain the steward's authority, it merely acts as a symbol of it. Thus, if a wizard loses his staff (or breaks it, whatever), it is sufficient to simply acquire a new one.

However, it is a very different case when Gandalf divests Saruman of his staff, and breaks it. Gandalf has been sent back as the new leader of the Istari. He is now Saruman's superior. Just as ceremonially taking back of the rod from Faramir divested him of his power as steward, so too did Gandalf's taking of Saruman's staff rob him of his power as one of the Istari.

Anyways, that's the thought I had. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

[alatar]

Thanks Essex for providing the text, and I DO trust that it is the verbatim, as anything less would be blasphemy.

Again, not to nitpick (but that's how this will appear ), but the text says nothing in regards to whether Gandalf's hand is on his staff or not. Presumably, if he were not mounted, he would have his staff in hand.

Surely you will give me something else to consider after reading the above, but in anticipation, as an example of 'item not mentioned explicitly, therefore...' I would point out that the Three Elvish rings were all in use, yet I can't remember any references such as "Elrond used his ring to" etc.

I really need to get those books out as (1) I hate trying to make a point based on memory and (2) this forum is making me want to dive in, yet again.

I like Formendacil's comments regarding the staff being a symbol of office.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

They are still physical channels of spiritual potency. I said "a medium": A staff is one of them, perhaps. But there are others, as you have proven.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples.

That's my take on those two points of this truly fascinating discussion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

Agreed. The staffs have great symbolic meaning. If Gandalf were to 'have them,' then I would take that as meaning he 'owned' or was more powerful than the Four.

And so to have a broken staff would mean what?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I thought I would call attention to an interesting tidbit I ran across in the CbC forum which has relevance here:

Which brings me to Gandalf’s staff. The fact that he (far more subtly than Aragorn) insists on retaining it [during the scene before Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf enter Theoden's hall and are asked to give up weapons] lends some credence to the theory that the Staves of the Istari were more than symbolic. I wonder whether he would have been able to achieve what he does once within the Hall without it? The suggestion is that it at least enhances his power to dispel Wormtongue’s webs of deceit.

- Wisdom courtesy of Saucy on this thread. Clarification in [brackets] is mine.

I thought it was far too relevant a fact not to be added to this discussion, but unfortunately, I can't take credit for noticing it myself.

Sophia

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have had my say regarding staves in general, and I'm sticking to it.

And, in regards to this:

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples. (Elladan and Elrohir)

But wouldn't leaving the Fellowship without his guidance constitute a shirking of his responsibility? Sure, everything turned out well during the time Aragorn led the fellowship, but what if Gandalf hadn't met them in Fangorn, because Gandalf hadn't been allowed to return?

Here's my view: Everything Gandalf did on that Bridge was just to scare ol' Roggie off. He could fight with it, yes, but he would lose time that he didn't have. But when the Balrog insisted on crossing the Bridge, he had to make sure it didn't reach the other end; ergo, the Bridge-breaking.

I think the Balrog's whip getting him was just pure coincidence. Although a good coincidence at that.

[Kuruharan]

It might have been even more important to break the Bridge at that point as I'm not sure that the Balrog would have wilted in the daylight.

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

The Ring perhaps?

As a Maia, could he have sensed its presence? Assuming that he was independent of Sauron, the lure would have been great for him. A Balrog could go a long way with the One Ring. And if he was under Sauron's command, then he would almost certainly have been after it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

Sorry for not being more clear. My point was that Gandalf hoped that it were daylight when they exited the East-Gate as this would deter Orc pursuit, but I don't think that daylight would have stopped the Balrog at all. Something more was needed to inhibit pursuit, such as breaking the Bridge.

And I think that it would have left Moria just to continue the battle with Gandalf. I know that it didn't appear after the battle of the burned Dwarves (sorry, can't remeber the name), but those were Dwarves and it was a bit before Sauron arose again in power. It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him. And I think that it says in the text that 'Sauron was putting out the call to all evil things.' Surely the Balrog would have responded in some fashion.

And it's always been my assumption that the Balrog was in some part responsible for what happened on top of Caradhras.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him. And I think that it says in the text that 'Sauron was putting out the call to all evil things.' Surely the Balrog would have responded in come fashion. (alatar)

Let us not forget that the Balrog and Sauron both were servants of Melkor. There is no point whatsoever to believe that they are now allies or something. They fell under the dominion of Melkor because he was more powerful, being a Vala and them being Maiar. The difference in power between Melkor and Sauron (or the Balrog) was way bigger then the difference of power between Sauron and the Balrog. Gandalf says, when in Moria, that he has met his equal in the Balrog. And Gandalf is only little less than Sauron.
The fact they both served under Melkor and both were high in his esteem seems to make them pretty equal. Now that Melkor is in the Void, I don't believe any Balrog would be in league with Sauron or be helping him altogether. (lathspell)

No, the Balrog and Sauron weren't on the 'same team' because that would mean the Balrog was on Sauron's team, and no way would an elfbane like that kneel to a peer. Personally, I think the orcs referring to the Balrog with cries of 'Ghash' were not all that unalike to referencing Saruman as Sharkey or referring to anything back home as 'Lugburz' wanting a prize. Those orcs may have been sent to Moria by Sauron a few centuries before to investigate and inhabit the place, but it was clear that Durin's Bane was in charge, and they kept clear of him. However, if he felt the need to use them to send message back and forth to Dol Goldur, there's no evidence of it happening. While Sauron maybe of all people knew the shadow of Moria was the Balrog, the Balrog seemingly, knowing full well Sauron was a higher up, didn't care to leave Moria for any reason. It was . . . "His realm" and any orc there was there by his leave. I wonder if he had declared himself Lord of Moria . . .

So anyway, regardless of being aware of eachother I don't think there was a lot of talk between the Balrog and Sauron. After all, the Balrog would probably take Sauron for a traitor after going AWOL when Huan ripped his throat out and leaving Morgoth without his most devious schemer during the War of Wrath. If anything, Durin's Bane probably didn't really like Sauron that much anyway, thinking him nervy to take the title of 'Dark Lord'. (Keep')

(Both quotes from Wielding the Flame of Anor by Keep')

[Kuruharan]

That sound you hear is the opening of a can o' worms...

While this issue may be deserving of its own thread (I'm not aware of a current one), in brief I will say I don't believe the Balrog would have left the nice, safe, dark underground because of the lure of the Ring. He could not have known of the existence of the Ring and so likely would not have understood its pull even if he felt it. He certainly does not strike me as the type to exert himself chasing after unnecessary trouble.

The Ring itself would probably not want to advertise itself too loudly because its master was Sauron and not the Balrog and it would not welcome that situation. In other words, perhaps at that moment it was purposefully not exerting a pull.

Unless you would want to suggest that the Watcher in the Water was the Balrog making an early snatch.

(Did I say in brief?)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Gandalf may have been stalling for time to gather energy for his blast (note all of his huffing and puffing about immediately prior to the incident). (Kuru)

Here we can reach a sort of compromise. Perhaps Gandalf was attempting to scare the Balrog off while preparing for a blast, should it come (which it did).

Re worms:

First of all, I don't think the Balrog was under any command. Like the dragons. Sauron can attempt to ally with it, but not command it.

The Balrog could be after the Ring. It doesn't have to understand its pull to be drawn by it (like, as Kuru said, the Watcher did). Although the puzzle that is Gandalf would be a better reason. Who is this being mighty in magic that dares to come in my abode? the Balrog might be thinking ever since their powers met at the Chamber door.

As for the Balrog and sunlight, well . . .

[Kuruharan]

Why not just ignore this irksome intrusion and get back to his slumber?...Fellowship was on its way out anyway

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through? Besides, he'd just had a rock dropped on his head. He might have taken that as a token of hostile intent.

But why should the Ring not profit from finding its ways into a Balrog's hands (claws, talons, whatever)?

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

evil things are drawn to the Ring

This is true. If it weren't for the Watcher, I'd say it was more due to Sauron's particular hold over his slaves.

I don't think that it would have been beyond the wit of the Ring to find its way back to its Master via the Balrog.

Well, I am obviously of the opinion that this path was one that presented tremendous obstacles to the Ring achieving its goal.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

We seem to have lost hold of Gandalf's staff...

Indeed. But threads often take twists and turns like this and, as you said, there's nothing like a Balrog debate to turn up the heat.

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through?

Perhaps by the fact that they were running at break-neck speed towards the exit.

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

A valid point. But the Ring was fast running out of options and on a one-way trip to doom (literally). I suppose it still had the Boromir gambit up its (metaphorical) sleeve. Inveigling itself into the Balrog's possesion would undoubtedly have been a risky move, but then its other options were pretty risky too. And just as Sauron was over-confident, perhaps the Ring was too. Perhaps it thought it had a good shot at mastering the Balrog. Then again, perhaps it did.

[HerenIstarion]

twists and turns, eh?

Legally, Balrog was in the right - the Fellowship committed what any lawyer would have labeled 'breaking and trespassing'. Legal defence may have pointed out that Balrog was a squatter, occupying dwarven halls legal owners never put their claims down to, but, on the other hand, as the prosecution may have retorted, dwarves themselves were guilty of selfsame 'breaking and trespassing' in the first place, as they dug into Balrog's original habitat in the lower halls without any legal ground whatsoever.

Accussed returned guilty, your honour!

So, it is just as well M-E haven't got lawyers