LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It seems that the Ents can resist, but how and why?

During their assault on Isengard, I should imagine that they were not in much of a mood to listen to Saruman, even had he had the presence of mind to try to appeal to them. It is possible that, once the assault was over and the Ents settled down to guard the Tower, Saruman would have attempted to use his "voice" on them. However, Ents are, as we know, not the most hasty of beings and are certainly not moved into precipitative action by mere words (as Merry and Pippin discovered). It is likely, therefore, that in these circumstances they would have taken their time to consider Saruman's words, thus negating their immediacy and therefore, possibly, their "magic".

[the phantom]

It seems that the Ents can resist

Saruman may not have known how to appeal to them.

they would have taken their time to consider Saruman's words, thus negating their immediacy and therefore, possibly, their "magic"

No, no, and no.

From ROTK, Many Partings (Gandalf speaking to Treebeard)-

He had the poison of his voice, and I guess that he persuaded you, even Treebeard, knowing the soft spot in your heart.

Ents couldn't resist. After Gandalf left, Treebeard was "left alone to talk with him" and Saruman talked his way out of captivity.

[Lathriel]

I don't have the book with me right now but in this chapter I get a sense that events could have turned out very differently for saruman. If he hadn't been so hungry for power he could have been a great ally. Also I feel pity for him as wel as anger.

Pity because he was such a great man and has fallen so far.He could have become even greater if he had not changed sides and betrayed the west.

Anger because he destroyed much that was beautiful and good. Also he caused his neighbours much grief. The ents lost some of their herd and the people of Rohan lost their prince Theodred.(PLus many of the Rohirrim and soldiers)

Of course many of these emotions reach their peak in the next chapter but in "Flotsam adn Jetsam" they are beginning to develop.

In this chapter Ents are shown to be more then kind creatures. It is like a warning. Don't try to battle against somebody whose full strength you don't know. That was a major mistake of Saruman's. He obviously thought he could dismiss the ents and that he only had to worry about Rohan. On top of that he also underestimated their strength and thought htat it wasn;t important. Thus he was not prepared for the march of thre ents and this is what caused his downfall.

[Encaitare]

'He let Wormtongue go, and he limped off through the arch, with us close behind, until he came inside the ring and could see all the floods that lay between him and Orthanc. Then he turned to us.

'"Let me go away!" he whined. "Let me go away! My messages are useless now."'

This just makes me curious... where did Grima think he was going to go? Gondor? Bree? He doesn't seem the type to make it on his own in the wild.

'An angry Ent is terrifying. Theyir fingers, and their toes, just freeze onto rock; and they tear it up like break crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.'

'I thought that they [the Ents] had really been roused before; but I was wrong. I saw what it was like at last. It was staggering. They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them.'

We all know that Tolkien was a lover of trees and rather fancied the idea of nature striking back. The second quote, though is very interesting to me; I don't think I noticed it before. It is as though multiple forces of nature, headed by the Ents, are striking back against Isengard's Fire. There are the Ents and Huorns(Earth), the Isen (Water), and the very sounds the Ents make in their fury (Air/Wind).

Ents couldn't resist. After Gandalf left, Treebeard was "left alone to talk with him" and Saruman talked his way out of captivity.

Beat me to it, Phantom. Although, it did take a while for Saruman to persuade Treebeard, so perhaps since the Ents are so ancient and decidedly unhasty, it takes longer for anything to affect them.

[Boromir88]

And are there any other people who could resist Saruman's voice?

I would say Gimli, because "they (Dwarves) are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy." The dwarves were a resiliant race and basically told Sauron to bug off, despite being offered riches, land, and an "I'll leave you alone" pass. It is also Gimli who first rejects Saruman in the next chapter, as well as the previous chapters we see his fond hate for the man. Now if you give it some time, Saruman might get to Gimli. But I would say if you don't restrain Gimli he'd try to chop off Saruman's head (or legs) before Saruman corrupted him.

[the phantom]

I understand what you are saying, Boro, but if Gimli was "left alone to talk with him" (with "talk" restricting him to speaking with his voice- i.e. no axe to change the subject) I doubt he'd last any longer than Treebeard.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would say Gimli, because "they (Dwarves) are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy." The dwarves were a resiliant race and basically told Sauron to bug off, despite being offered riches, land, and an "I'll leave you alone" pass

I noticed that Gimli was one who resisted Saruman's words, but then I'm in danger of skipping to the next chapter here, so I'll try to resist going too far into that. But if we think about the Rings of power, then it was the Nine which were most effective, corrupting the minds of Men, and the Three may have proven to be the downfall of the Elves if they had not been so quick in perceiving Sauron's intentions for the One. Yet the Seven did not have such terrible effects as might have been expected. If the Rings were made to have some kind of use in osanwe, thought transference, then perhaps the Dwarves do not possess this ability, either lacking it to some extent or even entirely. If so, then it might explain why Saruman's voice had no effect on Gimli.

The interesting thing about how Saruman eventually tricks Treebeard into releasing him is that this is preceeded by Treebeard relating many long tales to the captive Saruman; was Treebeard trying his own form of thought control here? It's certainly amusing to think of the 'hasty' Saruman being driven mad by long, rambling Entish tales. But the Ents do resist Saruman when they arrive at Isengard, in fact they chase him:

"When the Ents had reduced a large part of the southern walls to rubbish, and what was left of his people had bolted and deserted him, Saruman fled in a panic. He seems to have been at the gates when we arrived: I expect he came to watch his splendid army march out. When the Ents broke their way in, he left in a hurry. They did not spot him at first. But the night had opened out, and there was a great light of stars, quite enough for Ents to see by, and suddenly Quickbeam gave a cry: "The tree-killer, the tree-killer!" Quickbeam is a gentle creature, but he hates Saruman all the more fiercely for that: his people suffered cruelly from orc-axes. He leapt down the path from the inner gate, and he can move like a wind when he is roused. There was a pale figure hurrying away in and out of the shadows of the pillars, and it had nearly reached the stairs to the tower-door. But it was a near thing. Quickbeam was so hot after him, that he was within a step or two of being caught and strangled when he slipped in through the door.

Aside from being a scene I would love to see, I like this passage as it shows that even Saruman with his powers cannot do much more than run when faced with a furious tree giant. I wonder did he know he would not have time to try and charm the Ent after him? Did he know that Ents may take some considerable time to charm? Treebeard must have been difficult to charm, as he cannot have let Saruman leave for quite a long time. Perhaps the clue is in the fact that Saruman had never accounted for the latent strength of the Ents and did not know what to do when they attacked his stronghold, and maybe he 'learned' something of how to talk to an Ent through Treebeard spending so long telling him stories. Thinking about how the Elves were the ones to teach the Ents language, they must have had a different way of thinking to most other creatures, and maybe Ents (and Dwarves), because of their different origins to Elves and Men were more resistant to osanwe.

[the phantom]

But the Ents do resist Saruman when they arrive at Isengard, in fact they chase him:

I would not even begin to classify that as resisting Saruman- certainly not in the context of the quote in question-

There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him

The ents were not there to "talk". They were breaking and throwing things and trying to chase Saruman down. Plus there were many of them, far from "alone".

This event does not relate to the quote at all.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

It seems that it takes Saruman some time to get to the ents. Even though they "resist" him at first, they're not really listening at all, they're too focused on their own purposes (namely destroying Isengard). It takes Saruman a while to get Treebeard to listen to him; one gets the sense that though Saruman has been gone from Isengard for a while by the time the remainder of the fellowship arrives back there in ROTK, he did stay there for a pretty good chunk of time. Perhaps Treebeard's taletelling is a way of taking up the time so that Saruman doesn't have opportunity to "bombard" him with his voice. Treebeard is pretty sharp, he may have known that Saruman's vocal prowess was a danger to him, and thus been able to avoid it longer. Once he starts listening and actually paying attention, it seems like he's as vulnerable as the next guy.

Sophia

[Lalwendë]

One Ent alone, as has been shown, could eventually be broken down by Saruman's words, but it did take some considerable time. I think maybe Saruman had to listen to Treebeard, to try to find a way into his head and to learn the right words to use to persuade him to release him. But what I am trying to get at is whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this, and he clearly does not have any problem in dealing with groups of people - as shown in the next chapter. So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?

The following line shows how Saruman was totally unprepared for what was coming - he was in fact dealing with his own army at this point and took no account of the other 'army' on his doorstep:

"If Saruman had heard it, he would be a hundred miles away by now, even if he had had to run on his own legs," said Pippin

When the attack happens it clearly catches him off his guard and is something totally unexpected:

I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately

And the following lines suggest that at one time, at least, Saruman may have been able to persuade the Ents in some way (whether in a placatory or sneaky way is not clear) but it seems he may have mistakenly disregarded them:

"The Ents are safe," said Pippin. "He seems at one time to have got round them, but never again. And anyway he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any, once they had set to work.

Saruman and Treebeard at one time used to converse together, but this is now far in the past, and it also seems that Treebeard was in some way aware that he had been 'conned' by Saruman many years before. This may have given the Ents, including Treebeard, some knowledge of how Saruman's mind and words worked. But it seems Saruman did not necessarily listen to the Ents, and when it came time for him to defend his stronghold he simply 'did not have the words' to be able to do this; and when he wanted to escape captivity, again he lacked the right words and it took him a long time to learn them.

So the Ents do resist; the very act of their pulling apart Isengard is resistance. Saruman was once their friend, and they would have been very aware of how dangerous he was, so to carry out this act was risky for the Ents. Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it? He resorts in the end to his 'conventional' defences in firing up his underground forges, so he does want to defend Isengard, but these defences were clearly not made to withstand an Ent attack (as they have little effect), which suggests that this was not something he expected, and therefore, something which he could not deal with in the way he would usually deal with an enemy. This is all very fortuitous for the Ents, as they have taken a risk in attacking Isengard, and it is unlucky for Saruman, who had not considered this possible threat.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. Sorry for bringing up future events, but sometimes themes are interconnected, and it's easier to discuss them this way.

Lalwende's earlier quote was a prime example of this:

'Once he [ i.e. Saruman] was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

This explanation is critical for the next chapter when Gandalf and crew (minus the hobbits) will go to speak with Saruman. Only by having this advance piece of information can the reader understand Theoden's plight when Saruman lures him with tempting words, and the King seems close to succumbing. Theoden's difficulty in responding to Saruman is not due to any personal weakness, but is a confirmation of what we’ve already learned: “The Voice” can be virtually impossible to resist, even by the great and wise.

As Theoden, Eomer, and Gandalf leave to make plans with Treebeard, Legolas remarks that “the great ones have gone to discuss high matters”. Interestingly, that group does not include the heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor. As if to reinforce the fact that Aragorn wears a “different hat” in this chapter, Pippin gleefully declares that “Strider the Ranger” has returned when he sees his friend smoking pipeweed. Why is this? Why does Aragorn not assert his kingly voice as he does, for example, in the Palantir chapter? The absence of Aragorn's "kingly voice" not only holds true for this chapter but also the next one. Although Aragorn will be physically included in the group that visits Saruman, he says not a single word in Saruman’s presence….indeed he says nothing in the entire chapter.

Why is Aragorn restricted to “official silence” in both these chapters? First, I think he genuinely wanted to stay and talk privately to Merry and Pippin since he and Gimli had chased them over hill and dale, and he genuinely cares about their well being. And I’m certainly glad he did because the conversations with the hobbits were the most delightful parts of the chapter for me.

But I think it’s more than that. This is not the time to be trotting out a future King of Gondor. They all stand within the eye of Sauron’s palantir, which is surely fixed on Isengard. Therefore, anything they can do to downplay Aragorn’s future role is probably wise. There is another reason as well. Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans. This forebearance will help Theoden and Eomer to trust him as King of Gondor.

Finally, there are two instances of long-term foreshadowing. The most obvious is the discovery of pipeweed. The hobbits gleefully accept their treasure without thinking about what this could really mean. Aragorn smells a possible rat, and notes that “Wormtongue’s may be found in other houses than King Theoden’s”….a clear reference to Lotho.

Second, isn’t it amazing that both Saruman and Sauron owe their defeat to the same basic deficiency: a rigidity in thinking and lack of imagination, a lack of respect for those who oppose them? Sauron can not imagine that anyone would have the audacity to come waltzing in to Mordor under his nose. Saruman strips Isengard of troops because he can’t believe anyone is left who poses a serious threat. Sauron knows a bit about Hobbits, but he does not really respect them as possible enemies. Saruman does exactly the same with the Ents. Pippin talks about Saruman’s shortsightedness. Ironically, many of Pippin's words could also be applied to Sauron in terms of Frodo and Sam:

‘The Ents are safe,’ said Pippin. ‘He seems at one time to have got round them. but never again. And anyways he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any, once they had set to work….’

I think it’s equally fair to say that Sauron did not “understand” Sam and Frodo; he had not the slightest idea what would motivate two hobbits to creep into Mordor. And he certainly had no plans for such a contingency.