LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 11 - The Palantír

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What sparks Pippin’s restlessness? Is the stone itself working on him, is it just his inquisitive nature, or which other factors could be at the root of his wish to look into the stone? Did Saruman’s voice have an effect on him? Why Pippin and not Merry? ........ Though Pippin did wrong in taking the Palantír and looking into it, we find that good came of it; it saved Gandalf from temptation. There was no real harm done, and it seems to have had no further repercussions later on – or did it?

These comments, and some similar ones in the last chapter have got me thinking. Was Pippin DESTINED to look into the Palantír?

Let's ignore for a moment the issues pertaining to freewill, and look at the other side of the coin.

First of all, it proved extremely providential that it was Pippin that looked into the Palantír. By doing so, he saved Gandalf from a contest with Sauron, one that Gandalf was anxious not to have. In doing so he provided Gandalf with valuable information concerning Saruman's ties to Mordor, before only guessed at. And he initiated some valuable misinformation, directed at the Eye.

Who knows what sort of things may have gone wrong if Gandalf had looked into the Palantír?

Then there's Pippin's extreme attraction to the Palantír. Is this normal? No one else seems to be affected by it in such an irrational way. True, Pippin handled it, but that was it. At least in the case of Denethor he used it many times. And neither Denethor nor Saruman seem to have become ADDICTED to it, although they both came to dominated by it. Or did they? Technically, it was Sauron using the Palantir that dominated them.

So could this attraction of Pippin's be a form of divine intervention? Akin to Frodo's being "meant to carry the Ring"? Of course, this skirts about the issue of free will. One could argue, of course, that Pippin wasn't FORCED to use the Palantír, but that he chose to, influenced of course by divine influence.

Which then begs another question be asked: would the divine intervene through an illegal means? Because Pippin had no right to use the Palantír. The Stone belonged to the King of Gondor (Aragorn), and those designated to act in his stead. Whatever else Denethor may have done wrong, his position as Steward gave him the authority to use the Stone, if not the wisdom not to. Pippin had no such right.

Anyway, those are the questions that I thought up.

[davem]

First thoughts:

Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves.

"But I should like to know--' Pippin began.

'Mercy!" cried Gandalf. "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?"

"The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas," laughed Pippin. 'Of course! What less?”

Perhaps these quotes sum up the whole of this chapter. The Palantiri are dangerous things because they were the products of greater minds. Simply, Saruman was not smart enough - he didn’t understand what he was playing with:

"Then it was not made, not made'--Pippin hesitated--'by the Enemy?" 'No," said Gandalf. 'Nor by Saruman. It is beyond his art, and beyond Sauron's too. The palantiri come from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years. But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses. Alas for Saruman! It was his downfall, as I now perceive.

And neither did Denethor (or Pippin).

On the surface it would seem that Saruman’s & Denethor’s reasons are different from Pippin’s. Yet all three were seeking knowledge. Pippin isn’t driven by a desire to know the mind of Sauron, or to defend his people against the enemy’s onslaught, certainly, but he is seeking to increase his knowledge of the world. We’re given a very clear insight into Pipin’s character here - he’s driven by curiosity above all things. He wants to know how things work, where they came from, their names & their nature. Then how is he different from Saruman? Well principally, he doesn’t seek that knowledge for reasons of power or self aggrandisement. He simply wants to know & understand the world he lives in. Saruman wants to control the world. I think this is summed up in their approach to the Palantir itself. Pippin simply wants to know what it is. Saruman wants to use it. For Saruman it is a means to an end, for Pippin it is an end in itself.

So much for motives; the consequence of using the Palantir seems to be the same in each case. Saruman, Denethor & Pippin look into the stone & sooner or later (or instantly) they are caught by Sauron. But here again there is a difference. Saruman & Denethor are caught & held, Pippin is caught & breaks free - with Gandalf’s aid & this is significant I think, because Gandalf offers that same aid to both Saruman & Denethor, but they reject it. I wonder if this has to do with the three’s motives for looking into it in the first place. Saruman & Denethor use ‘their’ Palantirs in an attempt to make themselves more powerful, they are driven by egotism - Denethor may wish Minas Tirith to be saved, but he wants to be the one to do it. Pippin, on the other hand, is driven only by an insatiable curiosity about the world he lives in. Saruman & Denethor would have to humble themselves & admit they were less strong, less wise, than they believed themsleves to be, Pippin only has to admit he was a bit stupid...

[Mithalwen]

I think that this incident is one of those wonderful moments where something essential to the plot is nevertheless completely in character for the person who does it. I think in the circumstances it was inevitable that Pippin would want to have a look, also that he was much more vulnerable to this temptation than Merry.

Pippin's style is to do first and think later if necessary, he chucks stones down wells just because there is a stone and a well and he is curious .. . This does not always casue harm - it is the same part of his nature that guides him to leave the traces that Aragorn will find.

Although in many ways they are a "pair" , Merry is more of a thinker, he does not rush in so much. He was the mastermind of the conspiracy, he thought to research their journey in Rivendell whereas Pippin clearly assumed there would always be someone to take care of him. For so much of the time he has been almost "going along for the ride", this is a crucial point for him, he has to grow up and separate from the older Merry who has been in a bit of an "older brother " role. When they meet again, it wil be Pippin who is in the protecting role.

This is also one of those interesting points when a "wrong" action is crucial.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Pippin's style is to do first and think later if necessary, he chucks stones down wells just because there is a stone and a well and he is curious .. . This does not always casue harm - it is the same part of his nature that guides him to leave the traces that Aragorn will find.

Pippin does remind me of Perceval in the Grail Quest. He is the innocent 'child' who acts before he thinks. Its almost as if he (have I said this before?) has a deep trust in the Universe, & that life is a 'game' to be enjoyed, so he doesn't have to worry too much & he can play happily. Even when he feels his life is over, in the battle before the Black Gates:

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness. 'So it ends as I guessed it would,' his thought said, even as it fluttered away; and it laughed a little within him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear. And then even as it winged away into forgetfulness it heard voices, and they seemed to be crying in some forgotten world far above: 'The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming!' For one moment more Pippin's thought hovered. 'Bilbo!' It said. 'But no! That came in his tale, long long ago. This is my tale, and it is ended now. Good-bye!' And his thought fled far away and his eyes saw no more.

He reminds me of no-one so much as the Fool on Tarot, stepping off the edge of a cliff without realising because he is distracted by a brightly coloured butterfly fluttering in front of him. He feels perfectly safe, no matter what happens to him because its all a jolly big adventure & nothing really unpleasant can happen to him after all.

But that said, he does a little growing up, becomes more serious, throughout the tale - yet he never grows up entirely. He never loses his childlike innocence. He grows up just enough to be useful to his fellow creatures, rather than remaining a nuisance who needs looking after & who keeps getting in the way.

Perhaps he was 'chosen' - by 'fate' or Eru - to look into the Palantir, but if that is the case it must be because he was the one who would take the least hurt in doing so. Pippin was the one who could be trusted to come face to face with Sauron & come away, if not unchanged by the experience, then certainly with the capacity to smile again.

[Mithalwen]

I find it interesting (and a little spooky ) that you quote that passage since, prompted by Bethberry, I took a look at the other "book" endings - and of course that is one. Pippin again...... It occurs to me that while Frodo is officially Bilbo's heir financially and a s ringbearer, Pippin is Bilbo's heir in temperament - Pippin is much more like the Bilbo of the Hobbit where his "Tookish element" is in the fore. Both are caught up in journeys of which they do not fully appreciate the significance, both are impulsive, observant & loyal to their friends. Bilbo who could not resist the Arkenstone would not have resisted the Palantir either....

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Pippin is much more like the Bilbo of the Hobbit where his "Tookish element" is in the fore. Both are caught up in journeys of which they do not fully appreciate the significance, both are impulsive, observant & loyal to their friends. Bilbo who could not resist the Arkenstone would not have resisted the Palantir either....

That makes me think of the way the Grail legends developed. Originally it was Perceval (or Peredur) who achieved the Quest. Later he was replaced by the more saintly Galahad & turned into a kind of 'also-ran'. Yet he still remained in the later version of the story, hovering around.

I have to agree - Bilbo's spirit runs through LotR, carried by Pippin - they both signal the eucatastrophe of the Eagle's appearance in the same words.

Both Bilbo & Pippin seem to have run off on adventure in the same unprepared way - psychologically at least. Both were chasing butterflies. Now I think about it, I wonder if Pippin is as much of a link between the two books as the Ring. Pippin is Bilbo off on another adventure. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd forgot his pocket handkerchief too, & had to cadge one off Merry (who probably had a stack of neatly ironed ones in the bottom of his pack )

[Lalwendë]

Since reading of osanwe I have often thought that there could be a link between thought transference and the palantiri.

The palantiri come from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years

They have allegedly been made by the most infamous craftsperson in Arda, a long time before the Rings of power, and by one of those who would have known of osanwe, and known the uses of it. Whether the palantiri themselves were made to aid osanwe or simply to record memories is debatable, but they certainly were capable of both these things. Then they were given to Men, and Men who would have known about and no doubt had some skill in osanwe themselves.

The evidence that they were used for osanwe is stated by Gandalf and earlier, by Pippin:

"To see far off, and to converse in thought with one another,"

Then he came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood.

Pippin also seems to have been trapped by the use of osanwe, something the Hobbit is unaware of, and he certainly would not know of unwill, let alone how to exercise it, so it is indeed good fortune that he does not reveal more than he ought.

Osanwe does involve conversing in thought, and it is a skill which all sentient beings are capable of, if they are not necessarily aware of. And the palantiri possibly showed more than mere osanwe could allow, as they were also visual, and they appear to have stored memories. One factor in osanwe is that deception can come into play, and unwill, the closing of one mind to another. The palantiri could have solved some of these problems, a benefit to the user with good intentions no doubt, but also ultimately a failing, as one user with bad intentions could spoil the effective working of the other stones. Which is what happened when Sauron managed to get a palantir.

After being saved from the drowning of Numenor, they appear to have been sited with some kind of 'network' in mind:

Each palantir replied to each, but all those in Gondor were ever open to the view of Osgiliath.

This has then been lost to time. Perhaps the 'network' ceased to be safe to use once some stones had gone missing, and this is why the remaining stones were then kept secret. From what Gandalf says in this chapter, they were certainly not to be used lightly in any case, let alone when some had gone missing. It seems that the 'wise' knew and understood the potential failings of the stones.

But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote. Very useful, no doubt, that was to Saruman; yet it seems that he was not content. Further and further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon Barad-dur. Then he was caught!

'Easy it is now to guess how quickly the roving eye of Saruman was trapped and held; and how ever since he has been persuaded from afar, and daunted when persuasion would not serve. The biter bit, the hawk under the eagle's foot, the spider in a steel web! How long, I wonder, has he been constrained to come often to his glass for inspection and instruction, and the Orthanc-stone so bent towards Barad-dur that, if any save a will of adamant now looks into it, it will bear his mind and sight swiftly thither? And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would--to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!" He sighed and fell silent.

Saruman must have looked into the stone to see the memories stored within, surely something which would tempt anyone, even Gandalf, who dreams of looking at the golden days of Valinor, maybe going back to times which he personally remembers. These would have been fair things to look at through the palantir, but Saruman sought more and so looked deeper. Perhaps, at first, Saruman sought only that which Pippin dreamed of:

"The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,"

Knowledge, a noble enough aim, surely. But knowledge can indeed be dangerous, as proven by Saruman, who sought to forge his own path within Arda, who sought to break the Light. Perhaps in all innocence, Saruman sought deeper knowledge and opened his mind to what was within the palantir, and did not exercise unwill, and so Sauron caught him there. This has echoes of Faust.

How sad it is that these palantiri which contain so much potential, knowledge and memory cannot be used. Saruman must have used it at first through curiosity, and who would not think that one of the Istari could not safely look into a palantir? Even Aragorn who by right is entitled to use this stone, is urged not to use it hastily by Gandalf. Perhaps in the end it is Pippin's innocence which saves him, or does it teach him a valuable lesson in unwill?

[the phantom]

I love the exchange between Merry and Gandalf at the beginning of the chapter. That’s one of my favorite bits of dialogue in the entire book.

There is also this exchange between Gandalf and Aragorn-

'But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it- yet! Be wary!'
'When have I been hasty or unwary, who have waited and prepared for so many long years?' said Aragorn.
'Never yet. Do not then stumble at the end of the road,' answered Gandalf.

This brings to my mind the incident with Anduril in Edoras. Aragorn's pride is showing through a bit. I got the feeling that Aragorn did not like being warned by Gandalf. If you are warned about something it means that you need to be influenced to make a wiser decision. In other words, you might not make the right decision yourself. It insinuates a lacking or shortcoming. Even if Aragorn's pride was not insulted by Gandalf, I imagine he was at least annoyed a bit, like a driver being pestered by a "back seat driver". There is little that I find more annoying than being warned about something when I don't feel I need the warning, like being warned of a sharp right turn on a road I've driven hundreds of times already.

it would be disastrous for him to see me

Why did Gandalf say that (about Sauron spotting him)? Surely Sauron knew of him.

It is beyond his art, and beyond Sauron's too.

Wow! Sauron and Saruman were both talented Maia of Aule, were they not? You'd think that if anyone had the skills to make things and understand such things, it would be Aule or his helpers.

But the stones are beyond their arts? That just blows my mind. It makes me believe that, despite the text saying "Feanor...maybe", they must have been made by Feanor himself.

And speaking of Feanor, I think it's interesting that Gandalf says if he mastered the stone he would... spy on Sauron? no... get instructions from Manwe? no... but that he would view "the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work". I just love that.

(as everyone who's been here for a while knows, Feanor is as dear to me as his father and Silmarils were to him )

[Bêthberry]

Kudos once again to Estelyn for providing an excellent introduction to our discussion. The Princess is tenacious as well!

That is a very timely link, Regin Hardhammer. It shows how role plays can provide interpretations of the books and not simply be fanciful fan recreations of Middle earth. (not meaning to raise any ire with that statement)

I like Formendacil's way of considering Pippin's peek into the Palantir. It is a fortuitous fall of sorts, rather a small kind of eucatastrophe, is it not, that out of Pip's error, good happens.

Yet I have some slightly different questions--questions which no doubt will raise some hackles. It certainly makes sense to conclude Book III with a chapter which focuses upon the hobbits, because that provides a link to the other strand of the story, which has been held in abeyance while we followed this part of the Fellowship. Did we ever discuss why Tolkien did not twine his two narrative threads? What did he gain by devoting Book III to the Aragorn line and Book IV to the Frodo line?

For that matter, what is the effect of bringing in another 'magical' elven tool halfway through the story? Is it a way to explain Saruman's complex behaviour and a way to handle Denethor, whose presence, like that of his heir, would be a great complication to Aragorn's ascension to the Throne of Gondor? Is it more a plot device than an essential aspect of the story, the way the Ring is essential?

On the other hand, Book I ends with Frodo's succumbing to the Ring and wounding by the Morgul blade. Book II ends with Boromir's temptation by the Ring. Here, Book III ends with Pippin's temptation with the Palantir. Book IV has Sam making an important choice. I suppose it is fitting that each section concludes with a reminder of how serious and powerful is the evil which the Fellowship faces.

Well, before I raise any more hackles, perhaps I should close and leave other items for others to bring up.

EDIT: cross posting with davem and Mithalwen