LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 05 - The White Rider

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mark 12_30

I was also struck by how much Saruman DIDN'T know-- where were his powers of Osanwe? Has he lost them, being dependant on the palantir? How can he NOT see so much nowadays?

I had to pick up on this point, didn't I? I was jesting last night about my seeming obsession with osanwe...

I've thought about this myself, about how Saruman did not know that the Orcs had been waylaid. If osanwe is a gift given to all sentient beings then surely the orcs would have possessed this skill themselves? It should be the case that the orcs' minds were opened in order for Saruman to communicate, but the thought has passed through my mind that maybe they needed to close up their minds, to exercise unwill. Saruman's aims were covert and he needed to keep the mission secret from Sauron, so maybe his orcs by neccesity had to exercise unwill.

Of course, his excessive use of the palantir could quite easily have clouded his own mind, as it certainly clouded his judgement.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Of course, his excessive use of the palantir could quite easily have clouded his own mind, as it certainly clouded his judgement.

It does make me wonder whether the regular use of 'magical' technology could cause one's innate abilities to atrophy. Perhaps this applies across the board - maybe constant use of a 'magical' sword would lead to the user to lose some of their skill with normal blades, as such skills would be less necessary if the sword carried extra power in & of itself. Is Tolkien making a subtle point about how dangerous our dependence on technology is? We know that our ancestors had greater powers of memory than we do, simply because they had to remember more, not having such easy access to sources of information.

Just speculating.....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

It does make me wonder whether the regular use of 'magical' technology could cause one's innate abilities to atrophy. Perhaps this applies across the board - maybe constant use of a 'magical' sword would lead to the user to lose some of their skill with normal blades, as such skills would be less necessary if the sword carried extra power in & of itself.

I think that in the case of the palantiri for example, when they were used for good intent then they can only have enhanced the user's abilities, but it is entirely possible that excessive use would damage innate abilities. This seems to be what has indeed happened with Saruman, he sought further knowledge and eventually was 'caught'. Though I'm not so sure his innate abilities disappeared entirely. As seen in the Voice of Saruman chapter, he was still dangerous. It might also have been in the interests of Sauron not to have Saruman lose his mind entirely.

About swords - they often seem to possess some kind of 'magical' quality both in Tolkien's works and in other literature. Swords are usually invested with names and a great heritage; even their maker is usually remembered. Yet I wonder whether these swords really do all have magical qualities. A sword is a more complex weapon that it at first might appear, and they were often crafted with their user in mind, as length of blade and weight of hilt needed to be 'tailored' for most effective use. So perhaps Tolkien is echoing this sense that a sword would indeed be 'special' to its bearer. To lose such a personally tailored weapon would mean having to use something not suited to the bearer, and thus it would be less effective. And of course, to have no sword at all would make a person highly vulnerable, so it would be invested with yet more meaning and significance.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by davem

Its interesting to speculate on how Shadowfax knew of Gandalf's 'need' of him. Perhaps the answer can be found in an earlier draft:

Quote:
'The earliest extant account of Gandalf's summons to Shadowfax with his three great whistles, and his coming across the plain to the eaves of Fangom with Arod and Hasofel returning is already exactly as in IT (see p. 432); and this seems to fit the story in the present text, for Gandalf says to Shadowfax 'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend; but you are wise and swift, and come at need,' and he says to Legolas 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land.' (Treason of Isengard)


Perhaps we have here another example of Osanwe? Gandalf summons Shadowfax 'in thought' (as Aragorn will later summon the Dunedain. Of course this opens something of a can of worms - does Shadowfax have a 'soul'? Is he capable of Osanwe himself?

(Was it Aragorn or Galadriel who summoned the Dunedain?)

We rode as swiftly as we might when your summons came.’

‘But I did not summon you,’ said Aragorn, ‘save only in wish. My thoughts have often turned to you, and seldom more than tonight; yet I have sent no word.

‘Why have they come? Have you heard?’ asked Merry. He had now dressed, and he flung his grey cloak about his shoulders; and the three passed out together towards the ruined gate of the Burg.

‘They answered a summons, as you heard,’ said Gimli. ‘Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.’

‘Nay, Galadriel,’ said Legolas. ‘Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?’

‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’

However, back to Shadowfax and Gandalf.

Near the end of The White Rider chapter (of TTT, canon) is this exchange:

‘Now I understand a part of last night’s riddle,’ said Legolas as he sprang lightly upon Arod’s back. ‘Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?’

‘Yes, I knew,’ said the wizard. ‘I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land. Swiftly may he bear me back again!’

[Formendacil]

As excellent a chapter as "The White Rider" is, I sort of get where Tolkien is coming from in identifying it as a weaker point in the story, sandwiched as it is between two stellar chapters. Indeed, prior to reading this thread, my thoughts as I reread were mired in "Treebeard": I noticed, perhaps consciously for the first time, that the main part of this chapter takes place on what Tolkien very deliberately names (and capitalises) as Treebeard's Hill.

It's an interesting point to me because in our last dramatic meeting on this hill, Treebeard is loth even to call it that, such a hasty name for something that has been there since the mountains were reared. We talked a lot in that chapter about how Entish is a language where every name is a story, and by virtue of these two chance meetings on it, this hill is getting some mighty chapters to add to its tale: the destinies of many peoples changed because of two related encounters here.

Before, it was just a hill; now, it is Treebeard's Hill. Not the whole story of an Entish name, but maybe a name to preserve the memory of Treebeard for a time when the Ents are forgotten--as I learned thanks to Tolkien, place-names preserve some of the oldest linguistic pieces, through conquests and language-changes.