LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 11 - The Palantír

[Kuruharan]

I don't recall ever reading anything that equated the light of the Trees with the Secret Fire.

I view the Trees as being a creation of the Valar, which they were able to hallow and fill with light by their own power.

I believe the Secret Fire belonged to Eru and Eru alone.

Perhaps the danger with the Palantiri is the same as with the Ring

But I don't think this was always the case. I don't think the palantiri were always dangerous.

At least, we don't have a story about some vision-hooked royal functionary being dragged away from the palantir screaming, "Just one more peep show, that's all I ask!!"

[Lyta_Underhill]

Good evening, all! I have very much been enjoying the discussion of this chapter, one of my favorites! As an interlude, may I offer these tidbits:
My Favorite Pippin and the Palantir Artwork
A whole page of artwork from Book 3, Chapter 11--The Palantir

On a point made above:

davem: I didn't say the Silmarilli were evil. I said they were 'addictive' - or worse:they inspired desire in all who saw or heard of them, & their possessors (in most cases) were filled with obsessive thoughts of them to the extent that they were often lead to commit evil. So, even though they were not made with the intention of inspiring domination & evil action they often caused it...

I must say that this seems to be the backwards way around view to me. The Silmarilli were superior works of art, but the cause of all the trouble is Morgoth and the particular characteristics of Fëanor, as amplified through the tendencies and channelling of the energies of the Noldor as a group. The power is in the desire of the thing, not native in the thing itself. Beren thought it a trifle next to his Tinuviel, did he not?

Another question on the addictive nature of objects--would Faramir have used the Palantir if he were in the position that Denethor was in? I think rather it is Denethor's nature that inclined him to use the Seeing Stone, and his worldliness and lore was deep, thus he was prey to all sorts of snares set by Sauron. He was strong but unbalanced. Pippin, on the other hand, being an innocent, could not be tempted by these things and did not fall into the traps of Sauron, instead unconsciously and inadvertently tricking him into thinking as evil will, of "expedience," and thus Sauron is hoist upon his own petard and misreads the situation. You've got to love Pippin!

Cheers!
Lyta

[davem]

Originally Posted by Neithan

The Ring did not have a spirit.

No. I said it was a 'locus' of spiritual evil. I was (probably not clearly enough) drawing an analogy between the Ring as a phyisical object with a 'spiritual/metaphysical' aspect & an Elf/Human made up of fea/hroa.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I view the Trees as being a creation of the Valar, which they were able to hallow and fill with light by their own power.

I've always understood the Light (as opposed to light) to be the Secret Fire, & so Saruman's breaking of it is a blasphemous rather than a 'scientific' act. The Light of the Trees is called 'Holy' which I think relates it to Eru rather than the Valar. All Holiness has its origin in Eru not in any of His subordinates. Besides, if they could produce the Light themselves why not just conjure up some more. The point is that the Light is limited & grows less & less from the Lamps to the Trees to the Sun & Moon. That implies that the Valar didn't have an endless supply - they couldn't just 'manufacture' it.

Originally Posted by Lyta

The power is in the desire of the thing, not native in the thing itself.

But the Jewels are not morally neutral. They are 'Holy'. They exert a 'pull'. If the Light they contain has its origin in Eru then that attraction would be intense & quite possibly overwhelming - as proved so often to be the case....

Perhaps Faramir would have used the Palantir. Certainly I don't believe he would ever have used the Ring - because he knew that was Evil. He may have used a Palantir on the other hand - if he hadn't known what had happened to Saruman.

Too rushed..

[Kuruharan]

I've always understood the Light (as opposed to light) to be the Secret Fire, & so Saruman's breaking of it is a blasphemous rather than a 'scientific' act.

To continue my path of providing a counterpoint to everything, I think that light is its own order of creation (for lack of a better way of explaining it). I think that it is something that would be strongly attached to the good and not especially malleable to evil. However, it remains a created thing below Eru. However, this is obviously an opinion that I cannot prove.

All Holiness has its origin in Eru not in any of His subordinates.

Well, I agree with this to a certain extent. (It would be hard to flatly disagree with this statement and keep any mooring in the text). However...

The Light of the Trees is called 'Holy' which I think relates it to Eru rather than the Valar.

I think that the Valar have been gifted by Eru for the task that they accepted. As part of this they have certain sanctifying power within the confines of Ea. This they can do with the power they have been given inside creation. So while the Valar can render things holy, this does not mean that the object receives a part of the Secret Fire.

Besides, if they could produce the Light themselves why not just conjure up some more...The point is that the Light is limited & grows less & less from the Lamps to the Trees to the Sun & Moon. That implies that the Valar didn't have an endless supply - they couldn't just 'manufacture' it.

This is a very good point.

Perhaps the Valar were given a finite supply of power in order to bring about all the Music and then their task is done. This could mean that it is not given to them to do the same thing twice. It would also explain how the Valar grow weary of the world.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think that light is its own order of creation (for lack of a better way of explaining it). I think that it is something that would be strongly attached to the good and not especially malleable to evil. However, it remains a created thing below Eru. However, this is obviously an opinion that I cannot prove.

I would consider the Light to be the embodiment or manifestation of Eru, much as in Christianity the theological line is that "I am the way and the Light". Arda does not have Christianity, but the similarities in using Light as a theological symbol are too alike to brush aside. And there is textual evidence when Gandalf says he is "A servant of the Secret Fire". Why would he be a servant of anything less than Eru?

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Valar being able to render things holy. For Eru to be able to do this would seem right, but to enable a being which can take physical form to do this seems to pose too many potential problems. Would it mean, conversely, that Morgoth could render something divine? Yes, he does make Orcs and other evil or corrupt creatures, but are they the embodiment of evil much as the Two Trees might the embodiment of good? I'm more comfortable with the idea that there is only one source of divinity and that is Eru.

Of course, it is possible that the theological structure is different. After all, with a pantheon of lesser gods, and evidence that the Elves revered (worshipped?) other figures than Eru, it could have been a more pantheistic world. Yet this still does not 'fit' with events such as the wrongdoing of Saruman in breaking the Light; surely his actions could have been interpreted as trying to break down that essential 'whole', or all-encompassing divinity held by Eru.

[Kuruharan]

I would consider the Light to be the embodiment or manifestation of Eru

There's that word "embodiment" again.

I'm afraid my reading of the quotes I cited above won't allow me to accept that Eru is present in any way that the Children can perceive. They can see the light, so I just don't think that light can be anything other than a created thing.

And there is textual evidence when Gandalf says he is "A servant of the Secret Fire". Why would he be a servant of anything less than Eru?

Well, I don't think he would...but I'm not too clear on what you mean by this.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Valar being able to render things holy. For Eru to be able to do this would seem right, but to enable a being which can take physical form to do this seems to pose too many potential problems. Would it mean, conversely, that Morgoth could render something divine? Yes, he does make Orcs and other evil or corrupt creatures, but are they the embodiment of evil much as the Two Trees might the embodiment of good? I'm more comfortable with the idea that there is only one source of divinity and that is Eru.

I don't see rendering something holy as being the same thing as making it divine. Holiness to me means making something pure (or something being pure) without any sort of taint whatsoever. Being divine means...being divine. I don't think it is the same thing.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Well, I don't think he would...but I'm not too clear on what you mean by this.

I'm working from the premise that the Secret Fire and the Light are the same thing. The imagery of both are similar; the Secret Fire may be another way of expressing Light, or possibly where the Light comes from. If Gandalf would not be a servant of any being less than Eru then being a servant of the Secret Fire must mean Eru is the Secret Fire.

I think I need a theologian to draw up the exact links with Christian ideas here!

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't see rendering something holy as being the same thing as making it divine. Holiness to me means making something pure (or something being pure) without any sort of taint whatsoever. Being divine means...being divine. I don't think it is the same thing.

The only problem with this definition is that if being holy also means being pure and without taint, then many of the Ainur fail, even the 'good'. Surely if holiness is allowable where moral/spirtual failures or mistakes have happened, then what we might see as bad traits or behaviours are actually allowable for 'holy' figures? That seems tangled to me. Or is it a case of 'God's will'? Even if what is done by God seems wrong or cruel to us?

Maybe it is that anything less than Eru can never be as divine or pure. And that would include such items as Palantiri. If so, then there is a message in the creation of and the lust for the Silmarils, almost as if they are 'graven images'; and they do, after all, contain the Light within and as such are representations of it. But I think I need some Christian input here before I draw any more parallels!