Ioreth

[Formendacil]

Yup, you're wrong.

Ioreth was an old, single woman in Minas Tirith. Eligible, but not Eomer-marrying material.

Eomer's wife was Lothiriel (with a ' over the "o", which I am too lazy to try and find the code to), the daughter and youngest child of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. Other than general family history, nothing is known about her.

[mark12_30]

So much for my rant.

Lothiriel of Dol Amroth...

Ummm, she had elvish blood, and she probably missed the sea just a bit, as folk who move inland tend to do.

[Encaitare]

Don't feel bad, mark... it was a very nice rant.

[davem]

Apparently Ioreth means 'ancient' in Sindarin. The modern English equivalent being Priscilla. Wonder if Tolkien was letting us in on some kind of family in-joke regarding his daughter - maybe Priscilla was a bit like Ioreth?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Apparently Ioreth means 'ancient' in Sindarin. The modern English equivalent being Priscilla. Wonder if Tolkien was letting us in on some kind of family in-joke regarding his daughter - maybe Priscilla was a bit like Ioreth?

My dear davem, perhaps we can step back and consider a few dates. Priscilla Tolkien was born in 1929. LotR was completed in 1949, according to Carpenter, when Priscilla was twenty years old. A teen chatterbox? Perhaps, but that hardly suggests a gossipy old woman. A more likely namesake for Tolkien's daughter is this:

Important friends to St. Paul in the New Testament are the tentmakers Priscilla and Aquila. Paul lived with them for several years, they held a church in their home (an important factor in suggesting their devotion to the new faith, in a time of persecution, when Christians celebrated in private homes rather than in public buildings), and they travelled with Paul at times in his ministry. In fact, Priscilla is named over her husband several times--the Catholic Encyclopedia even comments that it is not know why she is named before her husband. Yet Priscilla is regarded as a special protector of Paul and of Christianity in other traditions.

There is a Saint Priscilla, whose catacombs are in the Via Salaria in Rome. Frescoes on the wall date to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. One of them shows a woman presiding over the Eucharist, although later church tradition insists this is a representation of Peter. Yet when the mass was celebrated in private homes, a woman presiding over it is not unlikely.

In short, Priscilla was an important figure in the early Christian church.

If there is a likely link, it was that Tolkien sought a name of a devout and faithful woman from the New Testament for his daughter, a woman who became known for her faith and support. Perhaps in some way Tolkien also recognised how the influence of such a woman became downgraded over the centuries of paternalistic traditions. That might be a more plausible way to understand Ioreth of LotR, I would think: a woman who kept the faith and lore and understanding even as she was dismissed as a talkative old crone.

The Wife of Bath is also garrulous, although Chaucer's Dame Alice had several husbands. That trait of garrulousness has a long tradition in literary types; think of Austen's Miss Bates. Perhaps there's a bit of these literary types in Ioreth. But a family in-joke is hardly likely.

And from what I have read of Priscilla Tolkien, she is a gracious and kind woman who is very helpful to the memory of her father, giving time to the Tolkien Society, for instance. She held a professional job in her adult life. Just because she is now elderly and unmarried, are we to insinuate some other traits about her?

[davem]

Note to self: Insert smileys when making jokes.

Perhaps not a(n affectionate) family joke. Maybe a philologist's in joke that the name of his daughter has the same meaning as that of one of his characters. Maybe there is some connection though - in that he wanted to include a hidden reference to his daughter in the book.

I didn't intend any disrespect to Priscilla. I haven't met her, but I have been at the past three Oxonmoots where she has presided over the Saturday lunch & my impression of her is a very positive one.

Besides, I happen to like Ioreth ....

[Bêthberry]

Well, had he wanted to include a hidden reference to his daughter, why not give the wise old elf woman in Lorien the name Ioreth? And give 'Galadriel' to the garrulous one. *insert joking smiley here*

But an interesting thought: do we know if Tolkien included any other hidden reference to a family member? Can we trace names of Tolkien's sons in LotR? of Edith? I could see doing this in The Hobbit, where discovery might increase children's glee, but why do it in LotR for just one child, particularly since the Letters suggest that it was Christopher who was the favoured child.