Battles of the late Third Age

[Rumil]

Hi Saurreg,

I must say I agree pretty much completely with your analysis of cavalry combat here. I nearly put in a sentence after the 'mighty collision' comment to emphasise that this almost never happened historically, but your post explained things a lot better!

I guess the only minor differences are that I'd credit the watchfire tactic of Eomer with 'penning in' the orcs though I'd agree that the reason the orcs could not flee further East was the location of the Entwash. I do think that if the orcs had scattered on the plains the Rohirrim would easily have been able to chase them down individually, however if they had managed to reach the forest, the riders would not have been able to pursue them effectively. Also maybe that cavalry of earlier times appears more effective against some infantry, but that really depends on the relative training and morale of both sides, which becomes more difficult to analyse as you go back in history.

I guess its really quite difficult for us to imagine precisely what went on in cavalry combat. I've seen some accounts of opposing units opening ranks and charging through one-another and some of the units reining-in, slowing down and fighting 'hoof-to-hoof', but often one side would break and run before the 'impact' occurred.

Anyway I must admit that the charge of the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields is one of my favourite bits of the books!

[Saurreg]

Time for a new discussion?

[Rumil]

erm, yeah, soon, honest!

Cheers,

Rumil

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Bump???

What's next, Helm's Deep?

[Rumil]

Hi Tuor et al,

as you noticed, I haven't made much progress with this thread recently! Must admit I've been v busy with those nassssty computerssssess at work and therefore not too enthusiastic about using the one at home.

Anyway, the next battle on the list is the Second Battle of the Fords of The Isen, please feel free to post any ideas and comments etc. I will get round to it eventually!

Cheers,

Rumil

[Snowdog]

I would like to say at this point, the command structure of the Rohirrim was somewhat in disarray with the death of Theodred. Grimbold and Elfhelm were the direct commanders over the foot men of Westfold and the riders of Edoras respectively. Erkenbrand had been put in overall charge, and named Grimbold as commander in the field, but did not assume authority over Elfhelm. But though they were friends and both wise, the differences in thought on how to best defend the Fords was ever prevalent. Considering the numbers available, I think Elfhelm's defence plan was the wisest, but the thought of abandoning the Fords uncontested didn't sit well with the Westfold commanders.

The second Battle of the Fords of Isen was a critical defence by a force out-numbered and initially out-maneuvered, but held on with little hope of relief in hopes their efforts were worthy. Strategicly it made a big difference with the time it bought Theoden to get to Helms Deep.

I have more on this but time doesn't allow right now.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The Battles of the Fords of Isen are well depicted by Tolkien. Theodred's
initial plans seem reasonable. I was at first prepared to question the
Rohirrim's intel, but heodred was aware of the general situation and
plans of Saruman (which makes all the more absurd Saruman's speech
to Theoden at Orthanc). On reconsideration the underestimation of
Saruman's forces was understandable, and rather frequent in military
history- giving verisimilitude to the battles. (Among others, consider Gen.
McClellan vastly overestimating Confederate forces in 1861-62 due to
not only his overcautious nature but badly flawed intel provided by
the Pinkertons, the wehrmacht greatly underestimating Russian forces
in 1941, and the incredibly, disappeaaring "weapons of mass
destruction" in Iraq---which fooled all intelligence services).

From what they surmised, the Rohan forces prepared and fought well
even in the Second Battle. Had Wormtongue not delayed Theoden
sending aid a stronger delaying action might have been fought in
the West Emnet while the muster of Rohan proceeded---based on
Erkanbrand's strategic vision:

He sent errand-riders to Edoras to announce this
(Theodred's loss) and to bear to Theoden his son's last words,
adding his own prayer that Eomer should be sent at once with
all help that could be spared. 'Let the defence of Edoras be made
here in the West,' he said, ' and not wait till it is itself besieged.'...
It was not until his (Grima's) defeat by Gandalf that any
action was taken. The reinforcements with Eomer and the King
himself set out in the afternoon of March the 2nd, but that night
the Second Battle of the Fords was fought and lost, and the
nvasion of Rohan began.

The twin evils of underestimating Saruman's forces and Grima's influence
may have delayed an effective defense of the Westfold. While speculative,
and ignoring needs to rapidly assist Gondor and to destroy Orthanc itself,
as a military in situ problem I would suggest Rohan would probably
have prevailed over Saruman, especially given the quality of Rohan's
leadership.