Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lindolirian · 03-05-2005, 04:22 PM

How about the abyss that Gandalf referred to when he rebuked the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith? He told the Ringwraith that it was a place that awaits him and his master. This makes it seem like Gandalf, being a Maia and most likely in the know of the sort of things, believes in a real abyss of judgement. Or was he referring to the Void and is it really a physical place?

Shelob · 03-05-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

How about the abyss that Gandalf referred to when he rebuked the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith?

I don't have my books with me right now Lindolirian so I can't go review that section to see how relevent this might be but the abyss could conceivably be based on the trench of Tartarus in Greek myth.

Quote:

Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven...Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night....While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods...in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. From Here

Like I said, with out my books to refresh my memory of that part this may be wildly off...but it's the first thing I thought of so with luck it's relevant.

Lush · 04-10-2005, 03:00 AM

I love it how this thread just died like a 90-year old grandma....Anyway...

I guess I originally started this in order to make some sense of Tolkien's ideas concerning hell. People had brought up the Void, and from my reading of the books, I always imagined to be a sort of physical place. Saruman's death may make it seem as though he was simply destroyed, but I don't think that really jives with the rest of the books. Rather it would seem to me that in painting Saruman's death the way he did, Tolkien was explaining to us how miserable it is to be separated from the West, where he originally belonged.

Re-reading over this thread now, I am beginning to think that hell in Middle Earth is first and foremost separation from the divine.

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-10-2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lush

...hell in Middle Earth is first and foremost separation from the divine.

Isn't that first and foremost what hell is in Christian teaching as well?

Lush · 05-02-2005, 09:24 PM

Yep. But some Christian scholars and thinkers are more specific about it than others. Some concentrate more on the fire and brimstone; while others, such as Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamazov are specific in talking about the suffering that results from the absence. Interestingly enough, the suffering is also very much self-inflicted...

Evisse the Blue · 05-03-2005, 08:30 AM

This thread did not live out its time, it should go on and on...Great discussion, everyone.

About the Void thing: this makes me think of a story by Stefan Zweig called 'Chess" where a guy was tortured by being isolated in a sparsely furnished room; and even though well fed and leading a comfortable life - the inactivity and isolation was driving him to madness. So, I imagine the Void being a place where your actions have no consequences, where screams are unanswered, where you are completely alone and forgotten by the rest of the world. One can even pity Morgoth if you consider this closely. Surely this is hellish enough.

I like Lhuna's idea of hell as a state of mind and the Eowyn example is perfect. This also ties in with Lush's idea of "suffering that results from the absence": absence of h(H?)ope. Sam also has his share of hell in Shelob's lair. There is a line there that has always evoked the height of suffering to me: "And then black despair came down on him, and Sam bowed to the ground, and drew his hood over his head, and night came into his heart and he knew no more." A descent into hell, not the body's but the soul's.

Both Sam and Eowyn are saved though. Aragorn and company emerges from the Paths of the Dead unscathed, though perhaps not unchanged. Frodo and Beren pay their tribute to the underworld, but finally they too are granted peace. Which makes me think there is no permanent hell in Middle Earth. At least not in the generally accepted sense of the word, found in religion and mythology.
Middle Earth is a far more benevolent place, it seems.

Ok let's take Orpheus for instance. He was favoured by men and gods, an exceptional person. He attempts the impossible and ventures into the underworld to rescue his beloved. He sings to the creatures and the gods there (sound familiar?) and he is apparently being granted his wish. But - there's a catch: don't look back at Eurydike. Apparently easy to do, but this is exactly when Fate plays a nasty card and he does exactly the forbidden thing, even though he knows the consequences will be dire. The stories are filled with such examples, when the hero/heroine does exactly what they are expressly forbidden to do, and hell ensues as a direct result of their actions. It doesn't matter that their intentions are good, they are not judged by their good character, but by that one mistake that they happened to make. In Middle Earth, it's not like this. Or is it?

alatar · 05-03-2005, 01:04 PM

Don't see a 'Hell' in Middle Earth.

Minas Morgul, Dol Guldur and Mordor are terrible places, as was the later days of Saruman-run Orthanc, but these places are accessible to anyone stupid or brave enough to walk in. Mere mortals have seen at least three of the four. And I don't see the 'underground' associated with the same.

Moria is in the physical world too. Surely the bottom of the Black Pit was a semi-mythical place, but the Dwarves built a stair almost to the same, and so I would say that this rules out Moria being Hell - too easy to access. The darkness and horror associated with Moria is due to new tenants (orcs and the Balrog). Assumedly, if the Balrog and company set up in the Shire then it would have a black name too. Moria had been a nice place once, and even Elves may have liked to go inside now and again.

Utumno would be a better candidate, as it was never meant to be an amusement park but more like a fortress/prison. Also it was inhabited by the less than nice. Free folk were sent there (when captured by Melkor's ilk, but not by Eru's judgment) and tortured - not, however, because of their misdeeds/sins but more for the pleasure and gain of Melkor et al. The torture was mental - seeing one's kin beleaguered and killed - and physical. Don't think that there was much self-torture as alluded to earlier in the thread.

Melkor was not tortured there (or at least any more there than anywhere else), and in fact it was his home base. Note that Satan is punished in Hell. Anyway, in the end Utumno is destroyed, and so that would remove any 'eternity' associated with the place.

Beren and Luthien took the place down momentarily and even survived to tell about it. But where their tale (to me) differs from others is that the two lovers fulfill the quest together just to remain honorable. It's not like Beren had to win a Silmaril in order to win Luthien's love. They loved each other enough to go on the quest together obviously figuring that (1) if successful, they'd be able to be legally married or (2) if not, at least they'd be able to spend some quality time together.

The Void to me is 'nothingness.' There is a form of existence, but not like we would know or comprehend it. To build from the previous analogy, assume that you could dehydrate people (don't try this at home!) and rehydrate them as desired. Poof! Sans water all one would have is dust. The person therein would still remain, as with a little water he/she would spring right back up and partake in life, but as dust would not be able to think, experience, count time...anything, just be.

To me when Melkor and his followers are cast into the Void they are dehydrated and made to sit out the game until Dagor Dagorath.

And in regards to holes in the ground, I think that one of the big reasons that mystery is associated with the same is (1) the earth (caves, holes) is accessible and (2) we've always had some fun when explaining things that go bump in the dark. Very high mountains, the 'edge' of the ocean, the depths of the earth etc are all places where mysterious things can take place. By climbing foothills, getting our toes wet or spelunking we can extrapolate as to what the end of the journey would be like. Surely we haven't gone there ourselves, but we know someone who knows someone...

It's a bit more of a trick to convince others that you or someone you know has journeyed into the air.

And I assume that it was found to be more efficient to bury the dead (for many cultures) than to hide them any other way from scavenging. The dead go into the ground, one can via cave go into the ground and reemerge...2+2 = 22.

03-05-2005, 04:22 PM	#1
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	How about the abyss that Gandalf referred to when he rebuked the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith? He told the Ringwraith that it was a place that awaits him and his master. This makes it seem like Gandalf, being a Maia and most likely in the know of the sort of things, believes in a real abyss of judgement. Or was he referring to the Void and is it really a physical place? __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

04-10-2005, 03:00 AM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I love it how this thread just died like a 90-year old grandma....Anyway... I guess I originally started this in order to make some sense of Tolkien's ideas concerning hell. People had brought up the Void, and from my reading of the books, I always imagined to be a sort of physical place. Saruman's death may make it seem as though he was simply destroyed, but I don't think that really jives with the rest of the books. Rather it would seem to me that in painting Saruman's death the way he did, Tolkien was explaining to us how miserable it is to be separated from the West, where he originally belonged. Re-reading over this thread now, I am beginning to think that hell in Middle Earth is first and foremost separation from the divine. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

05-02-2005, 09:24 PM	#5
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Yep. But some Christian scholars and thinkers are more specific about it than others. Some concentrate more on the fire and brimstone; while others, such as Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamazov are specific in talking about the suffering that results from the absence. Interestingly enough, the suffering is also very much self-inflicted... __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

05-03-2005, 08:30 AM	#6
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	This thread did not live out its time, it should go on and on...Great discussion, everyone. About the Void thing: this makes me think of a story by Stefan Zweig called 'Chess" where a guy was tortured by being isolated in a sparsely furnished room; and even though well fed and leading a comfortable life - the inactivity and isolation was driving him to madness. So, I imagine the Void being a place where your actions have no consequences, where screams are unanswered, where you are completely alone and forgotten by the rest of the world. One can even pity Morgoth if you consider this closely. Surely this is hellish enough. I like Lhuna's idea of hell as a state of mind and the Eowyn example is perfect. This also ties in with Lush's idea of "suffering that results from the absence": absence of h(H?)ope. Sam also has his share of hell in Shelob's lair. There is a line there that has always evoked the height of suffering to me: "And then black despair came down on him, and Sam bowed to the ground, and drew his hood over his head, and night came into his heart and he knew no more." A descent into hell, not the body's but the soul's. Both Sam and Eowyn are saved though. Aragorn and company emerges from the Paths of the Dead unscathed, though perhaps not unchanged. Frodo and Beren pay their tribute to the underworld, but finally they too are granted peace. Which makes me think there is no permanent hell in Middle Earth. At least not in the generally accepted sense of the word, found in religion and mythology. Middle Earth is a far more benevolent place, it seems. Ok let's take Orpheus for instance. He was favoured by men and gods, an exceptional person. He attempts the impossible and ventures into the underworld to rescue his beloved. He sings to the creatures and the gods there (sound familiar?) and he is apparently being granted his wish. But - there's a catch: don't look back at Eurydike. Apparently easy to do, but this is exactly when Fate plays a nasty card and he does exactly the forbidden thing, even though he knows the consequences will be dire. The stories are filled with such examples, when the hero/heroine does exactly what they are expressly forbidden to do, and hell ensues as a direct result of their actions. It doesn't matter that their intentions are good, they are not judged by their good character, but by that one mistake that they happened to make. In Middle Earth, it's not like this. Or is it? __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

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05-03-2005, 01:04 PM	#7
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Don't see a 'Hell' in Middle Earth. Minas Morgul, Dol Guldur and Mordor are terrible places, as was the later days of Saruman-run Orthanc, but these places are accessible to anyone stupid or brave enough to walk in. Mere mortals have seen at least three of the four. And I don't see the 'underground' associated with the same. Moria is in the physical world too. Surely the bottom of the Black Pit was a semi-mythical place, but the Dwarves built a stair almost to the same, and so I would say that this rules out Moria being Hell - too easy to access. The darkness and horror associated with Moria is due to new tenants (orcs and the Balrog). Assumedly, if the Balrog and company set up in the Shire then it would have a black name too. Moria had been a nice place once, and even Elves may have liked to go inside now and again. Utumno would be a better candidate, as it was never meant to be an amusement park but more like a fortress/prison. Also it was inhabited by the less than nice. Free folk were sent there (when captured by Melkor's ilk, but not by Eru's judgment) and tortured - not, however, because of their misdeeds/sins but more for the pleasure and gain of Melkor et al. The torture was mental - seeing one's kin beleaguered and killed - and physical. Don't think that there was much self-torture as alluded to earlier in the thread. Melkor was not tortured there (or at least any more there than anywhere else), and in fact it was his home base. Note that Satan is punished in Hell. Anyway, in the end Utumno is destroyed, and so that would remove any 'eternity' associated with the place. Beren and Luthien took the place down momentarily and even survived to tell about it. But where their tale (to me) differs from others is that the two lovers fulfill the quest together just to remain honorable. It's not like Beren had to win a Silmaril in order to win Luthien's love. They loved each other enough to go on the quest together obviously figuring that (1) if successful, they'd be able to be legally married or (2) if not, at least they'd be able to spend some quality time together. The Void to me is 'nothingness.' There is a form of existence, but not like we would know or comprehend it. To build from the previous analogy, assume that you could dehydrate people (don't try this at home!) and rehydrate them as desired. Poof! Sans water all one would have is dust. The person therein would still remain, as with a little water he/she would spring right back up and partake in life, but as dust would not be able to think, experience, count time...anything, just be. To me when Melkor and his followers are cast into the Void they are dehydrated and made to sit out the game until Dagor Dagorath. And in regards to holes in the ground, I think that one of the big reasons that mystery is associated with the same is (1) the earth (caves, holes) is accessible and (2) we've always had some fun when explaining things that go bump in the dark. Very high mountains, the 'edge' of the ocean, the depths of the earth etc are all places where mysterious things can take place. By climbing foothills, getting our toes wet or spelunking we can extrapolate as to what the end of the journey would be like. Surely we haven't gone there ourselves, but we know someone who knows someone... It's a bit more of a trick to convince others that you or someone you know has journeyed into the air. And I assume that it was found to be more efficient to bury the dead (for many cultures) than to hide them any other way from scavenging. The dead go into the ground, one can via cave go into the ground and reemerge...2+2 = 22.