Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

So I was watching ROTK EE yet again, and a new question arose: How many Gondorians did Gandalf kill?

From the books, we have the noncombatants already out the city. When Gandalf meets the Witch-King at the main gate, they exchange some words and then the WK leaves (whether because of Gandalf or the Rohirrim - we've covered that already). The enemy does not enter the city, and Gandalf goes off in pursuit of presumably the WK. Pippin tells him about the Faramir BBQ, and so Gandalf goes to help.

In PJ's world, Gandalf meets the three uber-trolls who come through the gate (just where are those kids from Gryffindor when you really need them?). He coordinates the resistance, slowing the advance of the enemy, but it's like holding back nighfall. There are many noncombatants running around the first level, who I assume where there looking to sell T-shirts ("Battle of the Pelennor Fields, 3019") to pay for therapy for their Steward...

Anyway, Gandalf yells out some really smart advice ("Fight for your lives!" Duh!) then hears Pippin calling. Next scene Ganadalf and Pippin are on Shadowfax up near/at the seventh circle of the city. After losing his staff, honor, seat to the WK, horns blow, the WK leaves and Gandalf proceeds with Pippin to save Faramir.

Next scene, Gandalf and Pippin await the enemy high up in Minas Tirith.

So, my point is that Gandalf should have sacrificed the life of Faramir as (1) he could then have retained his staff, which could have been put to some use, (2) he could have saved many Gondorian soldiers and noncombatants in their flight from the first to the fifth/sixth/seventh circle (or wherever he sits to chat with Pippin) and (3) except for hanging out later with Eowyn for a few minutes, just what does Faramir do anyway, especially in terms of the current battle? If Gandalf were in need of dead/near dead bodies, I think that he needn't have looked very far.

Many commoners died because Gandalf thought it more important to save the Steward's son.

[Essex]

Pity about the Gondorians, but there's a thing called the domino affect. If Gandalf HAD gone after the Witch King, then we may have had a totally different order of events. If Gandalf did catch up with the WK and fought him on the fields, this may have totally changed the fact that Merry and Eowyn confronted him. The WK may have survived an ordeal with Gandalf, gotton away. This could have led to a defeat at Minas Tirith if the army of Sauron still had his leiutenant alive, and most importantly of all, the two Orc hunters that argue about the WK's death in earshot of Frodo and Sam would have no doubt picked up the hobbits trail if this had not happened and consequently they were not trying to kill each other.

Captured Frodo, captured Ring, end of Middle Earth as we know it.

Therefore, Gandalf not going after the WK servers many purposes in the story. It shows what a tight and well conceived plot Tolkien pieced together. Take out small (and sometimes seemingly trivial) parts, and the story will totally change.

So a few gondorians got it. Yeah, but Middle-earth was saved.

[alatar]

Essex, I think that you missed my point. In the movie, Gandalf did not have a chance to go after the WK - Shadowfax can't fly, and accepting PJ's version of ME, I'm not sure that that's a battle that Gandalf would have sought out. If we take it at 'screen' value, Gandalf was in fear of the WK.

What I was trying to say that in PJ's world, Gandalf leaves the front line of battle (where he may have been of some effect) to go and save Faramir. To me that is silly as if all of Minas Tirith were to fall, what good would have Gandalf's act been?

Tolkien, as you state, made this all make sense.

[Essex]

You need to explain what the difference is in Gandalf saving Faramir from the film to the book? I can see none. You say that movie Gandalf could not go after the Witch King. Why not, and what has that got to do with the price of fish anyway?

Please explain to me your reasoning behind it. You say Gandalf left the front line of battle in the film to save Faramir. He did so in the book as well.

PS The witch king got back on his winged beast again to confront theoden. He only got on his horse so he could go through the gates of Minas Tirith as it's first ever enemy to pass through.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

You need to explain what the difference is in Gandalf saving Faramir from the film to the book? I can see none. You say that movie Gandalf could not go after the Witch King. Why not, and what has that got to do with the price of fish anyway?

Thought that I did . In the book, Gandalf meets the WK at the main gate. In the movie, it's up somewhere near the seventh circle. In the book, no enemy enters the city. In the movie it's a deluge, and I think that they go up to at least the sixth circle. In the book the noncombatants have been evacuated. In the movie they are running for their lives just in front of (and sometimes not) the soldiers' retreat. In the books, Gandalf could exit the city to help the battle on the field, yet decides to go and save Faramir. In the movie Gandalf leaves the front of the battle (deserting soldiers and noncombatants to their fate) to go and save Faramir.

Hopefully that's more clear. In one version Gandalf has the choice to engage combat or save Faramir, in the other he has the choice to disengage and save.

And as you well know, I think that book-Gandalf would have chased the WK whereas the movie-Gandalf seemed to be in fear of the same - one might say more fearful than when confronting the Balrog - and so I don't see PJ's Gandalf pursuing the WK. First, how? It was tongue in cheek before, but who would Gandalf get o the field of battle now that the lower part of the city was overrun? Also, with staff gone he had no ranged attack.

Please explain to me your reasoning behind it. You say Gandalf left the front line of battle in the film to save Faramir. He did so in the book as well.

In think that the 'engagement' part is the difference.

PS The witch king got back on his winged beast again to confront theoden. He only got on his horse so he could go through the gates of Minas Tirith as it's first ever enemy to pass through.

Again I was referring to the movies. Still, I would have loved to have seen the WK riding through the gate as described.

[Essex]

I can now see your point. A fair opinion, but here's my 2 cents:

Gandalf (in both film and book) knows that people will die because of his actions in leaving the witch king and going to try and save Faramir.

Pippin: Can't you save Faramir?
Gandalf: Maybe I can, but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other hhelp can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this

So even, as you point out, Gandalf has not yet physically 'engaged', he still knows that by not engaging there and then, lives will be lost. In both book and film, Gandalf makes a sacrifice.

I think Tolkien has this happen for a number of reasons, one of them being the feeling it brings up (in me anyway) of why does he do this? why does he try to save one (or two) lives and sacrifice many more? Because this is what happens sometimes in the real world. many people may be sacrificed to save a more 'greater' or 'higher ' person. Most people on this site come from the usa maybe? therefore if a person in a security detail in the white house had to save either the President or a group of people, I put it to you that he would save the President. Faramir was technically the preson in charge of Minas Tirith and Gondor at this point because of Denethor's descent into Madness, so he was fairly high up.

PS The enemy had entered the City as soon as the WK rode through the gates

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf (in both film and book) knows that people will die because of his actions in leaving the witch king and going to try and save Faramir. So even, as you point out, Gandalf has not yet physically 'engaged', he still knows that by not engaging there and then, lives will be lost. In both book and film, Gandalf makes a sacrifice.

Agreed, yet the sacrifice in the book is unknown until later. In the movie it's pretty visible who is going to feel the bite. Also, in PJ's world, Gandalf is of lesser stature than in the books, and so as I think that you may have stated in one of our many discussions that Gandalf acted like a good captain - he wasn't the leader of all of the free peoples as in the books. This captain had more than enough work right in front of him as the orcs and trolls were his match.

The book Gandalf sought bigger game.

I think Tolkien has this happen for a number of reasons, one of them being the feeling it brings up (in me anyway) of why does he do this? why does he try to save one (or two) lives and sacrifice many more? Because this is what happens sometimes in the real world. many people may be sacrificed to save a more 'greater' or 'higher ' person. Most people on this site come from the usa maybe? therefore if a person in a security detail in the white house had to save either the President or a group of people, I put it to you that he would save the President. Faramir was technically the preson in charge of Minas Tirith and Gondor at this point because of Denethor's descent into Madness, so he was fairly high up.

Understand your point, but Denethor was still in charge and Faramir was dead/dying and out of the battle, at least to movie-Gandalf's knowledge. Wasn't Faramir a bit nutty as he tried to commit suicide by orc?

So in the process of rescuing Faramir (one in the plus column), Gandalf abandons those in the lower levels to the orcs/trolls (a few in the minus). Then, for some reason PJ has Gandalf spur Shadowfax at Denethor, adding yet another to the minus list - and wouldn't that be fun to explain to Faramir?

And would not Gandalf sacrifice himself first, as he did on the bridge, to slow the advance? It's just the more I thought about it the more it seemed that Gandalf was 'running,' and you know how kindly I take to PJ disparaging my man Gandalf...

PS The enemy had entered the City as soon as the WK rode through the gates

As usual, I will have to take your word on that until I get my books back. Cheers.