Character(s) that you dont like... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 03-08-2005, 02:29 PM

I'd have to say it was actually Saruman's lust for power that changed his career path, or Saruman falling under many of the seven deadly sins....

He was proud (to the point of being arrogant and pompous)...
He lusted for power
He envied Sauron and Eru
He was definitely and angry man as well as Greedy.

I think a key turning point in Saruman's career change comes from something we see in the Timeline from the appendices:

Quote:

2939: Saruman discovers that Sauron's servabts are searching the Anduin near Gladden fields, and that Sauron therefor has learned of Isildur's death. He is alarmed but says nothing to the Council.

He's not evil at this time, as far as we can tell, I mean evil as in how he turns up in LOTR. However, you have to question why he didn't warn the Council about Sauron searching for the Ring? Perhaps he had his own plans to try to stop Sauron, but wanted to handle matters on his own?

What's important to remember about Saruman is besides his Uruk-hai and dunlanders he is alone. He is evil, but not Sauron evil, he actually has plans to undermine Sauron. He's not good, well because he has the same plans as Sauron, world domination. Saruman and Sauron are both after the same thing, so therefor they can't be on the same side.

It reminds me of the Hitler-Stalin, Germany/Russia pact. Hitler made a pact with Stalin, which stated they wouldn't attack eachother. It's not like an alliance where they help eachother out with money and forces, it's just an agreement to "hey we both want the same thing, so let's just not attack eachother (for right now). Let me deal with the west, leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone." Hitler was actually using Stalin to make sure Germany didn't have to fight a two-front war. Too bad Hitler foolishly thought he defeated the West when he turned to attack Stalin.

Reminiscent of the Sauron-Saruman relationship. Tolkien never really wanted them to seem like an alliance, more of just agreeing "since we're both after the same thing, let's just leave eachother alone." "Hey I got Gondor to deal with, you got Rohan, let's just not attack eachother since we're both after the same thing." Sauron was only using Saruman so he didn't have to have two extra people to worry about (Saruman himself, and Rohan) too bad Saruman couldn't get the job done. And Saruman foolishly believed he was in control of the situation, and devised his own schemes to get the Ring.

alatar · 03-08-2005, 03:15 PM

Bill Ferny was a petty criminal, and I'm not big on him, but he gets his comeuppance via an apple, and so he's not big on the list.

Never liked Ted Sandyman as he seemed to be a 'spoiler' - someone only interested in causing others some grief for personal gain/fulfillment, and generally life's hard enough without others piling on. That and he was dirty yet did not wash.

Gollum was addicted, and so he's a bit easy to pity - there go I but for the act of Frodo? He's evil to be sure, yet at least he's out for himself and so would even turn on Sauron. Gollum was caught by something much bigger and badder than his little wickedness could handle, and still he strove (at times) to turn away from it (like when he caresses Frodo as Frodo is sleeping). He wanted a cure, but could only find it at the bottom of the Crack of Doom as he no longer had the strength to find it alone. And by helping Frodo at the end, technically he's a hero.

Wormtongue is especially loathsome. Unlike Gollum, Worm knows full well what he's doing, which is betraying people who are at least civil to him. Instead of trying to win Eowyn's favor by doing something, he seeks to limit the field and take her by force. Jerk. And though he wants to possess her, he does not love her. If he did, he would let her go...

Saruman isn't as bad. Think that he had a bug when he was first released into ME, and it grew as the Valinor taint wore off - somebody knew something, as Cirdan and Galadriel were never his biggest fans. I think that like Aule he wanted to create creatures of his own, but as he wasn't in Paradise anymore but in the real world, this desire quickly turned to thoughts of domination, control and power. Initially he may have thought of contesting Sauron, but as the idiots who surrounded him weren't very helpful, he realized that he would need to control and order them for their own good as he was the only one with a clue. Unlike Gandalf, he could not allow people to freely choose to serve with him in the manner that they thought best. Think that he was reading some Machiavelli (The Prince) - it is better to be feared than to be loved. And I would add 'easier too.'

Note that the more you try to control, the more that you need to control.

Later, Saruman must have thought that he could accomplish even more if he had Sauron's hordes, and as these Maia had the same first initial, changing logos on uniforms wouldn't be an issue. When his perfect plans didn't pan out, he then became a spoiler too.

Anyway, he too got his just reward.

Moving south, at least Denethor had his people and sons in mind until at the very end, and so I pity him. He wasn't that bad; lost a wife, was losing a kingdom, lost a son, freaked out and sent his other child to a certain death, a Maia was bent on his destruction/downfall (you pick to which one I refer), found out that there's a land of midget people - if that doesn't crack you up, what does it take?

And agree regarding Bombadil's singing and Treebeard's speech. Next page please!

Thinlómien · 03-09-2005, 07:13 AM

I think Tolkien has made nearly all his not-so-nice major characters and the reasons why they are like they are quite understandable. I really can't say I don't like some characters - maybe except Ted Sandyman. Those who are evil are a different chapter.

Elonve · 04-15-2005, 01:29 AM

I really dislike Wormtounge! He was a slimy dispicabel character.
I really started to hate Denethor. I hate that he said stuff like "I wish you were dead instead of Boromir" What kind of Father says that to his son??

Anywhooooooo!

Cheers

Elly
________
How to use a whip vaporizer

Elianna · 04-15-2005, 07:46 AM

I second Lindir and Ted Sandyman wholeheartedly.

I can't see why you people dislike my Wormie...*dodges tomato*

I also can't see why Feanor hasn't cropped up on this thread yet. Single-handedly (wait, that's more like Maedhros or Beren isn't it? sorry...), leads most of his people in rebelion against the Valar, starts a war consisting of five blood-soaked battles, ruins the lives of his sons and countless others...

alatar · 04-15-2005, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elianna

I also can't see why Feanor hasn't cropped up on this thread yet. Single-handedly (wait, that's more like Maedhros or Beren isn't it? sorry...), leads most of his people in rebelion against the Valar, starts a war consisting of five blood-soaked battles, ruins the lives of his sons and countless others...

Did he lead them astray, or did they follow him freely? Except for his children, the others could have said "nay." Reading about the elves in the Sil, you see that they aren't as high and pure as they tend to appear in the Third Age anyway. And was Feanor not doing Iluvatar's bidding?

The reason I didn't add Feanor to my list was that (1) he was in Silmarillion country, (2) ya gotta respect someone who contests the Valar, (3) he also was a lot wiser than Manwe et al - including other Eldar - in regards to Melkor, (4) he did made some cool stuff, (5) he was neglected as a child.

In the same vein I can't stand those elven princes who gave Luthien a hard time (Celegorm and Curufin?). Put your slippers on and take a hike!

Elianna · 04-15-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Did he lead them astray, or did they follow him freely?

Obi-wan Kenobi: "Who's the more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?" I think it's the first fool, because he makes up the crazy idea, believes it, and then looks for followers, whereas the other fool only believes the idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

The reason I didn't add Feanor to my list was that (1) he was in Silmarillion country,

Yeah, Faramir did just say LotR, sorry.

Quote:

(2) ya gotta respect someone who contests the Valar,

uhhhh....no? Why would I do that when they're doing the best they can?

Quote:

(3) he also was a lot wiser than Manwe et al - including other Eldar - in regards to Melkor,

I'll give you that one.

Quote:

(4) he did made some cool stuff,

Like the Silmarils with that huge war fought over them? Like the palantiri, which were a leading cause for the brekaing up of Arnor, and Saruman's and Denethor's falls?

Quote:

(5) he was neglected as a child.

To my recollection, his father thought he hung the Moon, and his mom only left after he was grown.

03-08-2005, 03:15 PM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Bill Ferny was a petty criminal, and I'm not big on him, but he gets his comeuppance via an apple, and so he's not big on the list. Never liked Ted Sandyman as he seemed to be a 'spoiler' - someone only interested in causing others some grief for personal gain/fulfillment, and generally life's hard enough without others piling on. That and he was dirty yet did not wash. Gollum was addicted, and so he's a bit easy to pity - there go I but for the act of Frodo? He's evil to be sure, yet at least he's out for himself and so would even turn on Sauron. Gollum was caught by something much bigger and badder than his little wickedness could handle, and still he strove (at times) to turn away from it (like when he caresses Frodo as Frodo is sleeping). He wanted a cure, but could only find it at the bottom of the Crack of Doom as he no longer had the strength to find it alone. And by helping Frodo at the end, technically he's a hero. Wormtongue is especially loathsome. Unlike Gollum, Worm knows full well what he's doing, which is betraying people who are at least civil to him. Instead of trying to win Eowyn's favor by doing something, he seeks to limit the field and take her by force. Jerk. And though he wants to possess her, he does not love her. If he did, he would let her go... Saruman isn't as bad. Think that he had a bug when he was first released into ME, and it grew as the Valinor taint wore off - somebody knew something, as Cirdan and Galadriel were never his biggest fans. I think that like Aule he wanted to create creatures of his own, but as he wasn't in Paradise anymore but in the real world, this desire quickly turned to thoughts of domination, control and power. Initially he may have thought of contesting Sauron, but as the idiots who surrounded him weren't very helpful, he realized that he would need to control and order them for their own good as he was the only one with a clue. Unlike Gandalf, he could not allow people to freely choose to serve with him in the manner that they thought best. Think that he was reading some Machiavelli (The Prince) - it is better to be feared than to be loved. And I would add 'easier too.' Note that the more you try to control, the more that you need to control. Later, Saruman must have thought that he could accomplish even more if he had Sauron's hordes, and as these Maia had the same first initial, changing logos on uniforms wouldn't be an issue. When his perfect plans didn't pan out, he then became a spoiler too. Anyway, he too got his just reward. Moving south, at least Denethor had his people and sons in mind until at the very end, and so I pity him. He wasn't that bad; lost a wife, was losing a kingdom, lost a son, freaked out and sent his other child to a certain death, a Maia was bent on his destruction/downfall (you pick to which one I refer), found out that there's a land of midget people - if that doesn't crack you up, what does it take? And agree regarding Bombadil's singing and Treebeard's speech. Next page please! Last edited by alatar; 04-15-2005 at 08:41 AM.

03-09-2005, 07:13 AM	#3
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I think Tolkien has made nearly all his not-so-nice major characters and the reasons why they are like they are quite understandable. I really can't say I don't like some characters - maybe except Ted Sandyman. Those who are evil are a different chapter. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-15-2005, 01:29 AM	#4
Elonve Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Where the stars go blue. Posts: 153	I really dislike Wormtounge! He was a slimy dispicabel character. I really started to hate Denethor. I hate that he said stuff like "I wish you were dead instead of Boromir" What kind of Father says that to his son?? Anywhooooooo! Cheers Elly ________ How to use a whip vaporizer Last edited by Elonve; 04-09-2011 at 05:54 PM.

04-15-2005, 07:46 AM	#5
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	I second Lindir and Ted Sandyman wholeheartedly. I can't see why you people dislike my Wormie...dodges tomato I also can't see why Feanor hasn't cropped up on this thread yet. Single-handedly (wait, that's more like Maedhros or Beren isn't it? sorry...), leads most of his people in rebelion against the Valar, starts a war consisting of five blood-soaked battles, ruins the lives of his sons and countless others... __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

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