Let's Talk Morgoth

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think sabotaging Iluvatar's purpose was beyond Melkor's capacity.

Obviously. That's the point. All of Melkor's discord did not corrupt Iluvatar's plan, so how can we call it evil without maligning Iluvatar himself? He didn't fix the Music or remove Melkor's contribution.

Iluvatar evidently felt the discord was something to oppose.

He didn't oppose it, he contained it. He humbled Melkor and silenced him when he saw fit, but he did not oppose the theme Melkor had sung. Had he opposed it, he would not have claimed to be its "uttermost source."

I personally don't understand how Iluvatar's actions could be interpreted as favorable toward Melkor's activities. Note that Melkor was filled with shame as if he had been rebuked (which I think he had been).

I'm not saying that Iluvatar favored Melkor's discord, but I am saying that it was permitted and within Melkor's rights.

[Kuruharan]

That's the point. All of Melkor's discord did not corrupt Iluvatar's plan, so how can we call it evil without maligning Iluvatar himself? He didn't fix the Music or remove Melkor's contribution.

-and-

I'm not saying that Iluvatar favored Melkor's discord, but I am saying that it was permitted and within Melkor's rights.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. However, if it is part of some rights given to Melkor, then Iluvatar is not at fault for them.

[Maédhros]

From the Quenta Silmarillion

§31 Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
§32 Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

One of the things that I find most interesting about this discussion is what happens to Melkor. It seems to me that he was playing his rôle in this affair of making Arda what it was supposed to be.
Not only did Melkor enrich Arda in the material sense, Arda remade being better than Arda Unmarred, but he ultimately enriched the story of the world. Can you imagine the history of Arda without his plans and machinations?
I wonder about the fate of Melkor. In this prophecy it is stated that he meets his end, but I wonder if that means if Melkor is destroyed and ceases to exist or is just that Melkor as Morgoth is defeated and he could be reborn or remade as Arda has?
Could there not be a place for a reformed Melkor in Arda or outside of it with Ilúvatar?

[Kuruharan]

Melkor is destroyed and ceases to exist or is just that Melkor as Morgoth is defeated and he could be reborn or remade as Arda has?
Could there not be a place for a reformed Melkor in Arda or outside of it with Ilúvatar?

Unanswerable question. Insufficient data.

[Eruanna]

why was Melkor evil? Was this part of Iluvatar's plan?

If we see Melkor and the other Valar as aspects of Iluvatar, then it makes sense that there has to be evil in order to create balance with good, perhaps Melkor was simply fulfilling his purpose.

Arda remade being better than Arda Unmarred, but he ultimately enriched the story of the world. Can you imagine the history of Arda without his plans and machinations?

This is an interesting point, Maédhros. Sometimes good comes out of evil. Certain things, like wars for instance, are thought of as bad things, but throughout history we can see that times of war have also been times of invention and innovation in both technology and medicine.

[alatar]

What I've never understood is how an omniscient omnipresent infinite God could be considered 'good.' Doesn't that seem to place a limit on or anthropomorphize something beyond our understanding?

Melkor was obviously evil once he came to Arda, but beforehand I would have to agree with others that technically he wasn't, though he was in discord with Iluvatar. Was this pre-Arda discord because of pride, which is considered to be evil (discord - pride - evil)? Was he 'evil' because he failed to harmonize with the others, and maybe even worse, because he also silenced others, limiting their freedom?

And it should be plain to see that if Iluvatar wanted to remove Melkor from the theme that he could have easily done so at any time; therefore I would say that Melkor was a necessary part of the plan.

Wonder how Tolkien found this as he was a Roman Catholic? Satan, whom many consider to be like Melkor, is never thought to be 'part of the original plan.'

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Wonder how Tolkien found this as he was a Roman Catholic? Satan, whom many consider to be like Melkor, is never thought to be 'part of the original plan.'

Personally, as a practising Roman Catholic myself, I never once saw Melkor's meddling as a part of the original plan. Melkor's self-seeking musical changes were exactly the same, in my mind, as Lucifer's pride. The thing though, is that Eru/God allows his sentient creatures freedom. Thus, although it was not Iluvatar's intent, when Melkor disrupted the Music intended to be the act of creation, Iluvatar did not obliterate it and start over again, but rather, he took up the changes and used them to make Arda a more beautiful, ultimately better place. Our free will, like Melkor's, can disrupt the divine intentions, and make life worse for our peers, but in the end, God's will can bend all things towards Him and his ultimate goal.

We may steer the car into the ditch, but God will keep us going towards out destination, even if it be over field and fen.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by alatar

What I've never understood is how an omniscient omnipresent infinite God could be considered 'good.' Doesn't that seem to place a limit on or anthropomorphize something beyond our understanding?
...

Good post, and it echoes my feelings on the definitions of good and evil. God isn't just "good" because he never makes an error that leads to bad, he is the ultimate good because that's what he chooses to define himself as. He is the arbiter on a tier above the two sides. Since Melkor and the rest of the Valar were installed as creators and gods of Arda, they had a similar right to do what pleased them without moral constraint. As far as I can remember Iluvatar does not provide a moral structure to guide their actions, apart from his direct communication with Manwe. Morality is designed to guide physical beings. Similar to the Biblical account of the origin of the demons, once Melkor incarnates himself and begins to break the moral laws of the Incarnates, he is no longer above those laws and is then subject to condemnation.

Edited multiple times to correct egregiously bizarre grammar.

[Celebaglar]

Originally Posted by alatar

Melkor was obviously evil once he came to Arda, but beforehand I would have to agree with others that technically he wasn't, though he was in discord with Iluvatar. Was this pre-Arda discord because of pride, which is considered to be evil (discord - pride - evil)? Was he 'evil' because he failed to harmonize with the others, and maybe even worse, because he also silenced others, limiting their freedom?

No Melkor was not evil in the beginning. Melkor was in my oppinion to ambitious, he wanted power and to make things he believed in his mind to be good. He could be labelled as smarter than the rest of the ainur, for he thought independantly, and when he was shunned for his originality or difference, that is when he began to grow 'evil' as we know it, by disdaining the restrictions as his power as one of the ainur. My post seems a little strange, but i thought of how it might be from Melkors view. I believe he can be compared most accurately to a human as a Hitler type of person, he allowed his jealousy to grow out control into hatred.

[Maédhros]

From the Published Silmarillion

But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

This has always interested me. Why would only Melkor feel this way among the Ainur? Why does he has that innate curiosity that the others lack?
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power). (He was to make/ devise / begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.)
Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.

I had always thought that Melkor strayed from his path. To me at first, he was the one to have become like the great architect of the making of Arda, while the other Valars put their touches here and there. But now I think that perhaps I was mistaken.
Perhaps a world like that was to be flawed, perhaps it was that the reason that Melkor had such other ideas unlike his brethren.
What if Melkor's devise to make begin, was not meant for Arda but for Arda Remade? Consider, Melkor "incarnated" his power to the flesh of Arda, leaving no choice but to make it anew. With all of his interference he enriched the overall history of the world and that of Men, so that they should be an integral part of the remaking of Arda. By having struggles in Arda, wouldn't that make in the end the joy of victory that much sweeter?
If the only part of Arda was Valinórë, which had no Melkor ingredient on it, and yet Men could not live there and it was a constant source of grief in Men, would that not be wrong. Perhaps that is what Melkor saw and that is what led him to his ways. Perhaps Arda Remade was the way that all of the beings could live in perfect harmony together and Melkor was the one who began it all.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, that's what I've been saying. However, if it is part of some rights given to Melkor, then Iluvatar is not at fault for them.

You're right, I'm not saying Iluvatar's at fault. I'm saying Iluvatar apparently doesn't think it's a fault at all. Melkor's discord was woven into the Music and overpowered all other themes, but Iluvatar still claimed that the Music fulfilled his will. Therefore, how can we say that Melkor's discord was evil? If Iluvatar created everything, he was responsible for everything's opposite. On this tier of immaterial existence, there is no real way to qualify "evil" or "good," unless we define evil as the resistance to God's will. In our world, yes, that works, depending on what you believe. But in Ea it's different because Iluvatar claimed to be the uttermost source of Melkor's work, and that work, dissentious as it was, would bear out His own purpose and glory nonetheless.