Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[The Saucepan Man]

I was reading Letter #210 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien, which is a lengthy (and highly critical) commentary dating from June 1958 on the script for a proposed film of LotR (which, in the event, went unmade). It is a highly entertaining read and gives a great insight into Tolkien's approach to the filmic treatment of his work (which is refreshingly realistic). Although the script in question appears to be far more at odds with the book than Jackson and co's script, it is nevertheless clear from this letter that there are a great many aspects of Jackson's films that he would have disliked.

But the following passage seems particulary relevant to this thread, especially with regard to the criticisms made of the apparent discrepancy between the film portrayal of the Witch-king's powers at Weathertop and his powers at the Pelennor. The passage follows on from Tolkien's expressed annoyance at the script for having Aragorn lead the Hobbits away from Bree at night, which he sees as entirely the opposite of what Aragorn would do in the circumstances:

[The Black Riders'] peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.

This would appear to support my theory that the Witch-king is given a "power-up" of sorts by Sauron prior to leading his armies into battle, and this is something that the film captures quite well, I think, in the scene in Minas Morgul when the Witch-king first rides out on his Fell Beast.

So, in both the book and the films, the Witch-king of Weathertop is a different proposition from the Witch-king at the Pelennor. Whether this will make his breaking of Gandalf's staff in the film any more credible to Tolkien fans is unlikely, but it addresses the apparent inconsistency between the portrayal of the W-K's powers in these two parts of the film trilogy.

[narfforc]

The Saucepanman raises a good point, however Tolkien still does not say who is the mightier, and remember that Gandalf himself had also been enhanced. The two opponents would have been quite different from those that might have met on Weathertop.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

This would appear to support my theory that the Witch-king is given a "power-up" of sorts by Sauron prior to leading his armies into battle, and this is something that the film captures quite well, I think, in the scene in Minas Morgul when the Witch-king first rides out on his Fell Beast.

So, in both the book and the films, the Witch-king of Weathertop is a different proposition from the Witch-king at the Pelennor. Whether this will make his breaking of Gandalf's staff in the film any more credible to Tolkien fans is unlikely, but it addresses the apparent inconsistency between the portrayal of the W-K's powers in these two parts of the film trilogy.

I think that the books indicate clearly that the WK powered up for the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, but so had Gandalf when transforming from grey to white. In the movie these transformations/powering ups are also acknowledged, yet PJ has the WK go up more levels than I think is indicated, at least in comparision to Gandalf (heck, the WK didn't even change color! )

In short, all of the characters (Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, WK, armies, etc) powered up as the story proceeded, but PJ was inconsistent/inconsiderate in regards to Gandalf.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

In short, all of the characters (Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, WK, armies, etc) powered up as the story proceeded, but PJ was inconsistent/inconsiderate in regards to Gandalf.

Yes, I agree. If there is any inconsistency in the portrayal of their respective "power levels" in the films, it is with regard to Gandalf the White rather than the Witch-king.

Tricky subject this though, as the extent of Gandalf the White's powers is not entirely clear from the book, by virtue of the restriction placed upon him as one of the Istari. He only uses his powers "offensively" in times of utmost need. While his true nature and limitations as one of the Istari are not addressed in the films, this will have had an effect on his film portrayal. And I agree with Essex that the book leaves open the question of who would have prevailed in a confrontation between him and the Witch-king at the time of the attack on Minas Tirith.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Tricky subject this though, as the extent of Gandalf the White's powers is not entirely clear from the book, by virtue of the restriction placed upon him as one of the Istari. He only uses his powers "offensively" in times of utmost need. While his true nature and limitations as one of the Istari are not addressed in the films, this will have had an effect on his film portrayal.

Agreed. My opinion from reading the books is that Gandalf was permitted to use his powers only when needed to 'level the playing field,' and when in doing so he did not usurp another's chance to 'shine.' When Sauron and company start cheating at 'the game,' Gandalf jumps in. He can never force anyone to take action, but is permitted to persuade. Gandalf inspires hope and dispels fear so that characters can act as they'd want to. I've posted examples regarding this previously in this thread.

And I agree with Essex that the book leaves open the question of who would have prevailed in a confrontation between him and the Witch-king at the time of the attack on Minas Tirith.

As we have no data regarding the outcome, it then comes down to opinion. I leave you and Essex to your follies...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

As we have no data regarding the outcome, it then comes down to opinion. I leave you and Essex to your follies...

Ah, but I expressed no opinion. I simply noted that the question is left open.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Ah, but I expressed no opinion. I simply noted that the question is left open.

To even raise the question assumes that there could be more than one possible outcome .

And though Eowyn and Merry would still 'do in' the Witch King, I think that had he not left when he did, he would ridden away from the gate smarting from (at the very least) a wizard-induced wedgie.

[Essex]

I ask (again) why did Tolkien write the passage with the WK entering the city and confronting Gandalf? To show that the Rohirrim SAVED THE DAY. Not to show that Gandalf could have beaten the WK or vice versa.

In the movie, PJ just takes this a level or two higher (yes, I would have rathered Gandalf not looking so 'fearful', but this was PJ's way of showing that the 'world of men' has not failed, but were about to prevail).

This is EXACTLY what this scene is in the movie AND BOOK for. To highten the tension, to ratchet it up until we hear the horns of the rohirrim who save the day. This scene is not for us to see who would win in a battle between Gandalf and the WK. THAT IS IMMATERIAL TO THE STORY.

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

So let's put this question into perspective. To me, it's at the same level of 'My dad's bigger than your dad' or 'Tom's older than Treebeard.'