Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Ah, but I expressed no opinion. I simply noted that the question is left open.

To even raise the question assumes that there could be more than one possible outcome .

And though Eowyn and Merry would still 'do in' the Witch King, I think that had he not left when he did, he would ridden away from the gate smarting from (at the very least) a wizard-induced wedgie.

[Essex]

I ask (again) why did Tolkien write the passage with the WK entering the city and confronting Gandalf? To show that the Rohirrim SAVED THE DAY. Not to show that Gandalf could have beaten the WK or vice versa.

In the movie, PJ just takes this a level or two higher (yes, I would have rathered Gandalf not looking so 'fearful', but this was PJ's way of showing that the 'world of men' has not failed, but were about to prevail).

This is EXACTLY what this scene is in the movie AND BOOK for. To highten the tension, to ratchet it up until we hear the horns of the rohirrim who save the day. This scene is not for us to see who would win in a battle between Gandalf and the WK. THAT IS IMMATERIAL TO THE STORY.

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

So let's put this question into perspective. To me, it's at the same level of 'My dad's bigger than your dad' or 'Tom's older than Treebeard.'

[davem]

Originally Posted by Essex

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

Just for the sake of having another argument with Essex - Its entirely possible that Gandalf could have defeated the WK - its even possible that that was one of the reasons he was 'sent back'. The prophecy spoke only of 'no living man'. As Gandalf was not a 'living man' but (to use Tolkien's term) 'an incarnate angel', its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up. I have to say that in my reading Gandalf seems pretty damn annoyed that he has to leave the WK to go rescue Faramir & says somewhat to the effect that others will suffer because he has been called away.

( I will use this as an excuse to link to another painting by my favourite Tolkien artist, S. Juchimov)
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ru_gand...zguL_minas.jpg

[Essex]

Just to carry on the argument with Davem

its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up.

Please explain where you get this reasoning from. He was facing up to the Witch King. Not, in fact, bringing him down.

and

I have to say that in my reading Gandalf seems pretty damn annoyed that he has to leave the WK to go rescue Faramir

Absolutley. i stated that earlier. He had to possibly sacrifice the lives of many to save one. As he said - no one else could help Faramir, so he had to. Of COURSE Gandalf wanted to go after the WK. I'm not disputing that.

[obloquy]

That's an amazing piece, davem.

[davem]

Just to carry on the argument with Davem

Please explain where you get this reasoning from. He was facing up to the Witch King. Not, in fact, bringing him down.

Well, as I said, its my reading of the text, but I think that it was Gandalf's intention to bring down the WK - & he surely knew the prophecy concerning him:

When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless. But Pippin rose to his feet, as if a great weight had been lifted from him; and he stood listening to the horns, and it seemed to him that they would break his heart with joy. And never in after years could he hear a horn blow in the distance without tears starting in his eyes. But now suddenly his errand returned to his memory, and he ran forward. At that moment Gandalf stirred and spoke to Shadowfax, and was about to ride through the Gate.
'Gandalf, Gandalf!' cried Pippin, and Shadowfax halted.
'What are you doing here?' said Gandalf. 'Is it not a law in the City that those who wear the black and silver must stay in the Citadel, unless their lord gives them leave?'
'He has,' said Pippin. 'He sent me away. But I am frightened. Something terrible may happen up there. The Lord is out of his mind, I think. I am afraid he will kill himself, and kill Faramir too. Can't you do something?'
Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go,' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.
''But Faramir!' cried Pippin. 'He is not dead, and they will burn him alive, if someone does not stop them.'
'Burn him alive?' said Gandalf. 'What is this tale? Be quick!'
'Denethor has gone to the Tombs,' said Pippin, 'and he has taken Faramir, and he says we are all to burn, and he will not wait, and they are to make a pyre and burn him on it, and Faramir as well. And he has sent men to fetch wood and oil. And I have told Beregond, but I'm afraid he won't dare to leave his post: he is on guard. And what can he do anyway?' So Pippin poured out his tale, reaching up and touching Gandalf's knee with trembling hands. 'Can't you save Faramir?'
'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this. Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work.'[/b]

Why must Gandalf go? Why does he have no time if he has no chance of defeating the WK? I still feel that Gandalf believed it was his task to defeat the WK, & that that was the only chance to avoid the deaths of 'others'. So, he clearly felt he was equal to the task...

Originally Posted by Obloquy

That's an amazing piece davem

I take it you're referring to the painting. You can see all of the illustrations here:
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/juchimov.htm

[Essex]

gandalf MUST help him as he says himself

Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this.

He 'had no time' until Pippin explained the situation fully and Gandalf realised clearly what was happening.

It's another example of Sacrifice that tolkien introduces. The first few times I read the book as a kid I fretted over his decision, but as I grew up, I finally came to terms with it. No one else could help Faramir, so Gandalf felt duty bound to do so.

I compare this (although loosely) with the view a get when I see trauma teams working in hospitals (via documentaries/films etc). You see literally dozens of people fighting to save one person's life. Now this person could be a low life, nasty, good for nothing wretch, but their DUTY is to save him. It brings a warm feeling to my heart to know we have such dedicated people in the real world.

This is how I feel towards Gandalf as he leaves the WK to his own devices, and turns to save the heir of the Steward. I no longer feel any nagging doubts towards Gandalf as he pursues this aim, and forgoes his battle with the WK. I admire his stance, even though, as he says, sorrow will come of it. - Perhaps he could have saved Thedoen if he followed the WK, but then again, perhaps not....

I think the WK was pretty scary in the book, and in the films (for his enemies that is). Though the balrog was clearly another proposition, more menacing, a larger opponent. If Gandalf could defeat the Balrog, he would be strong favourite against the WK.

We don't really see enough of Sauron in the film though, or the book. I am a big fan of him, and I could see him creating havoc in the ranks of Gondor, though he'd probably be too lazy to march so far to war, nor would there be any need for him 2 get off his thrown, unless he was forced to by the threat of Gondor, as in the last alliance battle. I'd love to see a film based on that part of ME history!!!

Anyone else agree?