A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

you can't deny that, but for Grima's dreadful faults of character and cowardice, he and Faramir might have quite a few similarities.

I think the main difference between Grima and Faramir is that the latter does not seek power, while the former seeks it to such an extent that the very process of gaining it corrupts him. Both are slightly at odds with the perceived 'norms' of their respective cultures (and in Faramir's case, family expectations), but Faramir lives on the edges of his society while Grima seeks to get right to the centre of it. Neither of these ways of being is what they should do, as both go to extremes in doing what they do, Faramir almost seeming to want to escape, while Grima craves acceptance. Both are introverts, but while Faramir is damaged by his need to retreat, Grima is damaged by his need to have power, to be an infiltrator of the highest circle of his society.

Faramir of course gets his chance for 'redemption' of sorts by rejecting the ring, but Grima refuses to be redeemed in any way. Faramir does not suffer from an excess of pride, but Grima does, and it is this which brings him so low, literally, by the end of his life.

[Anguirel]

Excellent comparison, Lalwende. And of course, Faramir had several advantages over Grima by virtue of his birth. He was a Numenorean of the highest blood, handsome and tall, and in a culture where it was thought perfectly acceptable to be a master of lore rather than weapons. When pushed to it, he was also a natural leader-a better one, as far as we can tell, than his brother-and physically strong enough to fight for his country. And as the son of the Steward he was already at the centre of power-and, critically, learned to be wary of power, knowing it had led to his mother's waning.

Grima did not even conform to the physical standards of Rohan, with his dark hair. He was born into a minor warrior nobility, where war and the practice of arms was everything. He was as far from power as possible, armed with only his wits. The urge to get there, to beat the great fighters, must have been his driving force throughout his early life. And not an unadmirable one. For though he always sought to serve himself, in the beginning he meant to do so by serving King and country as best he could. He was no good in battle-why not a spot of administration? But in the end his pride would take him into murkier waters.

[Elianna]

For another example of how Faramir and Gríma are similar, and the differences in that, check this out: Wizards' Pupils

[Kath]

Back to something Keeper of Dol Guldur said

So, if Saruman were to bend that focus onto one man, Theoden (who he could presumably monitor using his Palantir, which is what the movie logically came up with as the tool of the "sorcery" involved) then he may very well have been applying just a bit of pressure on Theoden.

How would this work? I was under the impression that the palantirs communicated with each other, that two people had to own one each to be able to talk - such as Saruman and Sauron.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Kath

I was under the impression that the palantirs communicated with each other...

Me too, Kath. Maybe it was just through Gríma, or maybe Gríma had minions of his own: weaker minded Rohirrim who had grudges against the king, Théodred, or Éomer. We saw them in the movie, punching Éomer and attacking Aragorn and Co. (only to be kung-fu-ed ). They could quickly carry messages from Edoras to Isengard without Théoden missing Gríma, and without Gríma missing a beat to keep Edoras under control.


Here's an interesting tid-bit about Gríma: Only he himself and Théoden (only when he's still not completely healed) call him just plain "Gríma" and not Wormtongue. Not even in the narration is he called Gríma. Always Wormtongue.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

The Palantir were used to communicate with each other, but Gandalf talked about using them to see things in the past, like the workings of the mind of Feanor, and seeing

"To see far off, and to converse in thought with one another ..."

And then regarding the Orthanc-stone;

"But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote."

"... turn it where I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"

Anyway, my point about Saruman using the Palantir as a tool for it seems a little iffy anyway, and closer reading revealed that for the most part, his gaze in the Palantir was on Barad-Dur, and it took massive force of will to take it away, because Sauron drew all who looked into it there through his own Ithil-stone.

But Saruman could crush wills anyway ... his voice ... his essence.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I don't know how to describe this...

"Then I will," said Saruman. "Worm killed your Chief, poor little fellow, your nice little Boss. Didn't you Worm? Stabbed him in his sleep, I believe. Buried him, I hope; though Worm has been very hungry lately. No, Worm is not really nice. You had better leave him to me."

The question then, is did Wormtongue really ate Lotho? Or was Saruman only jesting in cold blood? As it seems, Saruman may have coerced Worm to cannibalize like the orcs that had been under his command. But if so, it might even be argued that wormtongue himself was deprived.