gandalf as a maia

[dwarfguard]

i remember reading somewhere that someone suspected that he came from the west,thats why cirdan gave him his ring and said something like by these grey shores shall i await you and your labors will be hard.So he must of known.Right?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Cirdan had the distinct empirical advantage of witnessing Gandalf arrive from the West. So his suspicions were aroused somewhat.

[burrahobbit]

He had the empirical advantage of seeing him get off of a boat on the west coast.

[Maerbenn]

It is said in the first paragraph of the essay on the Istari published in Unfinished Tales that “none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.”

According to the third paragraph, it was “for long known only to Círdan” that the Ithron “came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West.”

[dwarfguard]

so, it makes you wonder how the fellowship explained the existence of wizards to themselves.I mean, its not everyday you meet a person of magical powers that returns from the dead.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You allude to a bold assertion Maerbenn. That historian obviously never considered the possibility that the Istari had merely been on a zany college drinking cruise.

Cirdan had certainly considered that possibility. A careful fellow, yea verily.

[Anguirel]

When Olorin was hanging about being wise with Manwe and Varda and Nienna, before the death of the Trees, I thought it was mentioned that he liked the company of Elves? While I see him perhaps being more interested in the Vanyar, surely he would have met, even known quite well, Galadriel? But perhaps it took a while for her to recognise him-he was disguised as an old man, and they hadn't met for a wee while.

Still, it would seem she remembered him eventually. What else explains her favouritising of him over Curunir, his senior, with whom she had rather more in common? Of course, it's likely Curunir reminded her of Feanor and his sons. She may also have envied and suspected his power, resented his condescension. But all the same...I think she must have worked out who Mithrandir was.

And you'd definitely have thought Glorfindel would have known, even though Tolkien didn't mention him. Why, the fella was an honorary wizard, sharing Olorin's task! He'd certainly have known whence he'd come, even though he was sent back earlier, I suppose. I think this is an oversight, and Glorfindel should be included alongside the "Big Three"-as should, arguably, other Noldor such as Gildor. (Which would shed light on his remark about wizards.)

Oh, and Maglor would have known him at once, of course...

[lord of dor-lomin]

who of the fellowship (if any)knew that gandalf was a maia and not just a "wizard".I think that elrond knew and probably cirdan knew.

Elrond and Cirdan were in the Fellowship?

But I'm sure anyone who knew anything could figure it out that he was an Ainu, even if they couldn't figure out he was a Maia. He looks like a man but he can't be one since he just keeps living and living and doesn't turn wraith-like, he's too tall to be a dwarf or a hobbit, and he looks too old to be an elf- plus he doesn't have pointy ears, and everyone knows that elves have pointy ears.

What else can he be?

Another Bombadilish enigma? An ent that has grown mannish and shrunk?

He doesn't fit snugly into any category, so what's left? An Ainu!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, obviously. If you know what an Ainu is. Bilbo, for example, considered him a wizard. And that was that. That didn't make Bilbo stupid.

[lord of dor-lomin]

That didn't make Bilbo stupid.

But it did make him ignorant.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gandalf didn't know too much about the contents of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins's wardrobe. Gandalf was ignorant too.

[Eruanna]

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bilbo was ignorant. With perhaps the exception of Cirdan, they were all as much in the dark as to the origins of the Istari. Only Cirdan, being the oldest and wisest, recognised Gandalf for what he was and treated him with due reverence. As he spent so much time with elves, Gandalf became accepted and valued by them over the centuries, without them necessarily understanding his full purpose.
Apart from those elves who had been to Aman would any of them have recognised a Maia anyway, even without the old man disguise?

Men seemed to think that Gandalf was an elf of some sort. From UT; The Istari :

'...he was called among the Men of the North Gandalf, 'the Elf of the Wand'. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind...

To the hobbits he was a wise and magical being. He was their friend but he could also show a more severe, sharper side. He was obviously not a hobbit, an elf or an ordinary man. What else could he be but a wizard?

Apart from his own abilities and talents Gandalf had the added enhancement of Narya. This magnified his 'open and friendly' spirit and made him beloved of those he had come to aid. It is possible that the power of the ring also helped to keep up the facade.

[lord of dor-lomin]

I think we were on topic and ok.

I thought so too, but I was wrong. In my last post I said something sarcastic, and apparantly it is impossible to be on topic and sarcastic at the same time. I got warned about that on another thread a while back. It's all my fault, Eomer, no reason to blush.

I think most people in Middle Earth didn't care what he was. We're more curious about Middle Earth than it's own inhabitants. I guess most people I know are the same way. They don't care how their car works, just so long as it works, you know what I mean?

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bilbo was ignorant. With perhaps the exception of Cirdan, they were all as much in the dark as to the origins of the Istari. Only Cirdan, being the oldest and wisest, recognised Gandalf for what he was and treated him with due reverence. As he spent so much time with elves, Gandalf became accepted and valued by them over the centuries, without them necessarily understanding his full purpose.
Apart from those elves who had been to Aman would any of them have recognised a Maia anyway, even without the old man disguise?

Men seemed to think that Gandalf was an elf of some sort.

To the hobbits he was a wise and magical being. He was their friend but he could also show a more severe, sharper side. He was obviously not a hobbit, an elf or an ordinary man. What else could he be but a wizard?

A few responses to these points. Elves like Galadriel and Gildor had been to Aman; and Glorfindel practically still had the light of Valinor in his eyes. Surely they would have cottoned on to at least the nature of the thing, if not Olorin himself?

Also, for some reason, I'm increasingly attracted by the idea that Gandalf and Galadriel were close friends in Valinor. Between them they were Tolkien's favourite characters, judging by the amount of material on them; Galadriel always showed Gandalf favour; she defended him against Celeborn's not-so-respectful epigraph. I like to think of it as similar to the relationship of Odysseus and Helen in the Iliad, though I know that has nothing to do with it.

Very interesting. So Men generally thought he was a sort of Cirdan? Reasonable enough. Explains the superstition of the Rohirrim regarding him; and perhaps some of Denethor's attitude too. Though would the likes of Denethor, Aragorn and Faramir have had a better idea of the situation?

Finally, note that the hobbits, and some men, seem to have imagined wizarding as a profession rather than a race. Sam is teased by Frodo as being a potential warrior or wizard in FOTR (out of the question, of course, if it was regarded as a separate race); Beorn describes Radagast as "not a bad sort, as wizards go", or something. Quite interesting.