gandalf as a maia

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, obviously. If you know what an Ainu is. Bilbo, for example, considered him a wizard. And that was that. That didn't make Bilbo stupid.

[lord of dor-lomin]

That didn't make Bilbo stupid.

But it did make him ignorant.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gandalf didn't know too much about the contents of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins's wardrobe. Gandalf was ignorant too.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Gandalf didn't know too much about the contents of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins's wardrobe. Gandalf was ignorant too.

Yes, you're right. You seem to have an excellent understanding of what ignorant means. Congratulations.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

My point was that it is clear why your average resident of Middle-earth would have no concept of Ainur.

[Anguirel]

...please don't turn this into a semantic squabble. I come here for Tolkien rumination, not extra English Language AS sessions...thrilling as they are...let's get back to the topic at hand...

[The Saucepan Man]

Hear hear, Anguirel.

Petty, and ultimately pointless, points scoring serves no purpose but to clutter up the thread and drive it off topic.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm not sure about the severity of this example, though. lord supposed that it was clear that Gandalf was an Ainu, and thus the Fellowship could have worked it out (very simplified, I'm sorry!) I countered by arguing that it was not as simple as that.

I think we were on topic and ok. No?

[Eruanna]

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bilbo was ignorant. With perhaps the exception of Cirdan, they were all as much in the dark as to the origins of the Istari. Only Cirdan, being the oldest and wisest, recognised Gandalf for what he was and treated him with due reverence. As he spent so much time with elves, Gandalf became accepted and valued by them over the centuries, without them necessarily understanding his full purpose.
Apart from those elves who had been to Aman would any of them have recognised a Maia anyway, even without the old man disguise?

Men seemed to think that Gandalf was an elf of some sort. From UT; The Istari :

'...he was called among the Men of the North Gandalf, 'the Elf of the Wand'. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind...

To the hobbits he was a wise and magical being. He was their friend but he could also show a more severe, sharper side. He was obviously not a hobbit, an elf or an ordinary man. What else could he be but a wizard?

Apart from his own abilities and talents Gandalf had the added enhancement of Narya. This magnified his 'open and friendly' spirit and made him beloved of those he had come to aid. It is possible that the power of the ring also helped to keep up the facade.

[lord of dor-lomin]

I think we were on topic and ok.

I thought so too, but I was wrong. In my last post I said something sarcastic, and apparantly it is impossible to be on topic and sarcastic at the same time. I got warned about that on another thread a while back. It's all my fault, Eomer, no reason to blush.

I think most people in Middle Earth didn't care what he was. We're more curious about Middle Earth than it's own inhabitants. I guess most people I know are the same way. They don't care how their car works, just so long as it works, you know what I mean?

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bilbo was ignorant. With perhaps the exception of Cirdan, they were all as much in the dark as to the origins of the Istari. Only Cirdan, being the oldest and wisest, recognised Gandalf for what he was and treated him with due reverence. As he spent so much time with elves, Gandalf became accepted and valued by them over the centuries, without them necessarily understanding his full purpose.
Apart from those elves who had been to Aman would any of them have recognised a Maia anyway, even without the old man disguise?

Men seemed to think that Gandalf was an elf of some sort.

To the hobbits he was a wise and magical being. He was their friend but he could also show a more severe, sharper side. He was obviously not a hobbit, an elf or an ordinary man. What else could he be but a wizard?

A few responses to these points. Elves like Galadriel and Gildor had been to Aman; and Glorfindel practically still had the light of Valinor in his eyes. Surely they would have cottoned on to at least the nature of the thing, if not Olorin himself?

Also, for some reason, I'm increasingly attracted by the idea that Gandalf and Galadriel were close friends in Valinor. Between them they were Tolkien's favourite characters, judging by the amount of material on them; Galadriel always showed Gandalf favour; she defended him against Celeborn's not-so-respectful epigraph. I like to think of it as similar to the relationship of Odysseus and Helen in the Iliad, though I know that has nothing to do with it.

Very interesting. So Men generally thought he was a sort of Cirdan? Reasonable enough. Explains the superstition of the Rohirrim regarding him; and perhaps some of Denethor's attitude too. Though would the likes of Denethor, Aragorn and Faramir have had a better idea of the situation?

Finally, note that the hobbits, and some men, seem to have imagined wizarding as a profession rather than a race. Sam is teased by Frodo as being a potential warrior or wizard in FOTR (out of the question, of course, if it was regarded as a separate race); Beorn describes Radagast as "not a bad sort, as wizards go", or something. Quite interesting.

[Thinlómien]

I think all people considered that he was a wizard. A wizard as a race, like hobbit. (Ok, no wizard children or wizard women, but I hope you can catch the idea of wizard as a race.) Or then just some extraordinary human-like being.
Some people might have been ignorant.
And I think Gandalf clearly knew wht he was, but the other persons in the fellowship didn't.

[drigel]

Interesting Galadriel thesis going on here. But, didnt Olorin "pass unseen" amongst the elves? Were the elves aware of his presence? I do think that I am adhering to the idea that Galadriel and her ilk (those who were Eldar or had come from the west) would have the ability to sense a soul that had "come from Aman", as it were.

But, if they actually knew they were Maia, more reverence would be shown to them, to the detriment of the original mission of the Istari. Galadriel would be less uppity towards Saurman at the White Council debates too, which would have profound effects on their strategy.

As for the average ME inhabitant, (IMO) Wizards were just another critter in the park. It would depend on ones experience/travels. The average man indeed would consider him an elf of somekind, because he/she would relate the fact that the wizard never expiring with the fair folk, or what they understood about them anyways. By the TA, men would have had more exposure to wizards than elves. For hobbits, wizards were wizards, but the attribute of never dying would not particularly be associated with elves. They had their Tom Bombadils, Goldberrys, Old Man Willows, etc.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It rather stretches credulity to suggest that Aragorn didn't
know about Gandalf, not only was he head of the Dunedain
and raised as Elrond's foster son, but his fiances' grandma
was on friendly terms with Aragorn.
And Faramir had similar reasons to know of Gandalf's origins,
both from being "a wizard's pupil" and his daddy's
ability to have insights. And surely Faramir would have
discussed Gandalf with his admired older brother.

[dwarfguard]

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?I mean, if she suspected anything, she might be afraid of the wrath of the valar and maybe she thought the wizards might be there to persecute her for leaving valinor?Or maybe she sensed his mission and kept silent for the fellowships sake?