gandalf as a maia

[dwarfguard]

yeah.. I really didnt detect any sarcasm either, just your opinion on the matter.Anyway, i believe the general consensus is that nobody in the fellowship and out of middle-earth, possibly only cirdan, elrond and galadriel had any idea.Correct?

[The Saucepan Man]

Please let's not let this thread descend into petty squabbling and points scoring again.

Originally Posted by dwarfguard

i believe the general consensus is that nobody in the fellowship and out of middle-earth, possibly only cirdan, elrond and galadriel had any idea.Correct?

Well, that would appear to have been Tolkien's thoughts on the matter. As Maerbenn posted back near the beginning of this thread:

Originally Posted by Maerbenn

It is said in the first paragraph of the essay on the Istari published in Unfinished Tales that “none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.”

It's not strictly canon, but it seems pretty decisive to me if one is inclined to accept the factual matters stated in the "unpublished" materials.

[Rumil]

I'd guess that the reactions of most humans, hobbits and dwarves (without special knowledge) to Gandalf would be initially that he was simply a wise old man. The next problem facing the 'unlearned Gandalf considerers' would be that he was exceptionally long lived.

How would a typical inhabitant of say, Esgaroth, Gondor or Rohan react to this?

Firstly, Gandalf was a wanderer and may have appeared so infrequently that only folk memories of him existed in a certain town and therefore he could have been seen as the heir of 'original Gandalf'.

Secondly, a Numenorean, the knowledge of their long lifespan would be fairly widespread.

Third, an elf, which is implied by his name amogst the notherners. This may be easier to understand if we remember that in most human habitations (apart from Esgaroth) elves were never, or exceptionally rarely, seen.

I think the fourth likelihood is more believable. Everyone seems to classify Gandalf as a wizard, while not really knowing any details of what a wizard was. Would it not be natural for most folk to believe that he had secured longevity by 'magical' studies, sorcery or whatever? There is some backup for humans with 'magical' powers, Beorn, the Mouth of Sauron and the Nazgul in their early days come to mind. It also seems likely that the Mouth had managed to extend his lifespan. Maybe this was a reason that Denethor disliked Gandalf. The Gondorians had always been interested in magical life extension and Gandalf was refusing to tell the secret!

I guess fifth, sixth and seventh lielihoods are Maiar, Valar, or Unknown. I'd imagine that many went for the Unknown option but that few would go for fifth and sixth.

[HerenIstarion]

It also seems likely that the Mouth had managed to extend his lifespan

Not to drift off despite brave attempts not to, see the age old discussion in Magic in Middle Earth by Saulotus. Mouth discussion starts around post #15. For those with a limited time to read it, short summary - I believe it is impossible to extend one's lifespan without a) becoming a wraith b) special grace of Eru through Valar (this latter may be viewed as natural ability of the organism in harmony with its environment and Eru's laws = Númenoreans before the fall)

Back to topic: for men, I'd vote for elven theory (Gand + alf). Cirdan was bearded (third phase of elven lifespan, see Gillete, the best Cirdan can get by latando angaina), so aged appearance would not have been that much of an obstacle (cf point made by Eruanna, post #25, I more or less repeat it adding up the beard )

Elves must have known Gandalf for other then themselves. But in this case, 'do not judge good brought by your Lord' principle mentioned in my previous may have come into play, and elves (apart from the Wise) simply never questioned what Gandalf was. Position like to that of Fangorn - learning about hobbits, he simply adds them up to the list of living things, without asking for credentials, passports or other paperwork (the latter bent for attestation being desease of modern thinking) (i.e. virtual encounter: 'who are you, father?' 'I'm Gandalf' [some centuries later] 'you are still in business, father?' 'why should I leave business unfinished?' 'wise answer, he is a wise one... he's a wizard' (mental note - smart bearded men who do not die as all others do are 'wizards' - must be special subsection of men, or maybe creatures other than, whatever. Inscrutable are... end of inquiry)

[the phantom]

I stumbled upon a passage today that I thought belonged here on this thread.

Pippin wondering about Gandalf (ROTK, Minas Tirith)...

Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. 'How much older?' he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?

[Halbarad]

Interesting quote Phantom, and in this context it made me think of something (which is probably why you posted it). I'd be willing to bet that hardly anyone ever thought about Gandalfs age, so a question of who or what he was probably wouldn't have occured to anyone. Pippin finally asked this question after seeing Gandalf in contention with a mighty Man. Would anyone subscribe to the idea that there was some quality about the Istari that discouraged that kind of questioning?

Its my first post here, so hi everyone!

It seems to me that the essence of the Istari was very different to that of the Maiar. As I [vaguely] recall, the Maiar were somewhat taken aback by Manwe's request for emissaries to ME. Olorin was afraid of Sauron. It was as if the process of incarnation was scary for some reason - Yet the Maiar regularly became incarnated, so one must assume that in this case its for some other, underlying reason.

That reason being that, as Istari, they arent really Maiar any more. They are not bound by the Song of Illuvatar as once they were - prone to the temptations of power or the flesh as they never were in Valinor, they can fall by the wayside.

IMHO, the origins of the Istari were unimportant to those in ME. It is the spirit that currently fills them that matters. People do not sit around in the White Tower ruminating about where Sauron came from - it is the role that he plays in their lives that is important.

As Gandalf comes as a pure emissary of Eru (well, almost pure ), it is THIS that Cirdan/Galadriel/Elrond/(Celeborn?) sense. When Galadriel speaks with Frodo, they speak almost as equals in spiritual stature (perhaps not /power/). She doesnt treat him "as a hobbit".

Just as with Gandalf. Those of the White Council who did know or hear rumours of the origins of the Istari either kept it to themselves or did not care. Gandalf is a man first, a Maia second. I do not think that the Elves or others of the Wise would see it any other way.

Likewise, when Saruman becomes evil, no metaphysical notions are raised of "an angel falling to the dark side" (or however youd like to put it). The notions raised are of human treachery, limitation, weakness in the face of overpowering force - despair. Again, nobody sits around thinking "No way dude, but he came from the West!" ... they just get on with it.

Basically, IMO, the way in which the Maia-ness of the Istari would be perceived is dependent on their actual personalities. But thats just my two cents.

And on the Galadriel issue, well, "The female of the species is more deadly than the male." Wouldnt be surprised if Balrogs just fled from her presence. (Though I do not think that she'd be a totally psycho with a blade, I would expect a certain degree of expertise. No person could live through, be a part of and witness that many thousands of years of battles without picking up some training.)

Ty for listening to me ramble
Craig