Sam's final journey

[Formendacil]

Cirdan was still there.

As far as I know, there is NO evidence that Cirdan crossed over with Elrond, Galadriel, the Hobbits, etc.

On the other hand, there is a very clear statement (I can't lay hands on where it is, frustratingly enough), that Cirdan would remain in Middle-earth until the LAST ship departed.

It is quite clear that there were still many Elves in Middle-earth after Elrond's departure. Rivendell was still populated under the rule of Elladan and Elrohir, Celeborn remained with the remnants of Lorien. The Haven Elves themselves don't seem to have been thinned too much. Legolas and his Elves, and well as Thranduil's people remained. And as far as we can tell, although Gildor had left, there were still some Wandering Companies in Eriador.

Also, as Sam tells Elanor (and us) in the Epilogue (unpublished, but indicative of Tolkien's feelings on the subject), there would be Elves (even some Noldor at that) in Middle-earth for many long years to come. Indeed, I would say that there are STILL Elves in this middle-earth of ours, and that means that Cirdan is still here somewhere, probably at some small fishing town on the British coast.

It would appear plain to me that it was Cirdan who oversaw the building of Sam's boat. Perhaps there was a company of Elves ready to depart Middle-earth at that time anyway, and Sam arrived just in time to catch a ride, not unlike Bilbo and Frodo.

[Fingolfin II]

Very interesting, Formendacil! I always thought Cirdan departed over the Sea with Galadriel and Co., but now I'm not so sure thanks to your well-structured argument. However, it says in the Prologue something to the effect that 'It is not known when Celeborn finally sought the Grey Havens and with him went the last memory of the Elder Days from Middle-Earth' (don't have the book on me; it went something like that though). Now, if this is the case that means that Cirdan must have already left Middle-Earth or 'faded away', if Celeborn was the last person who lived through the First Age to depart from Middle-Earth.

Back to orginal question, though. I'm sure Cirdan wasn't the only shipwright and that there were other Elves who had not yet departed Middle-Earth who could build Sam (and themselves too) a ship. Or perhaps a ship was already waiting for him, like narfforc has suggested. Remember, there was at least one person who we know was able to build a ship- Legolas. In the Appendices it says that after Aragorn died, Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, sailed over Rauros and thus passed over Sea and was rumoured to have taken Gimli with him.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Guys, I believe I know where this was stated.

"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."

This is at Third Age, Appendix B of LOTR, at the part where Cirdan gave Gandalf Narya. So it is to be presumed that he stayed until every single ship left.

In fact, where we given any evidence that there were no more elves in the 4th Age? Hardly. But that does not conclude that those elves that prefer to stay are now stranded on Arda.

[Boromir88]

Celeborn did end up leaving, but I think it was sometime long after Sam had left.

It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there (Rivendell), after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder days in Middle-earth.

I also thought that somewhere it said Cirdan remained until all the elves (or the ones that could and would) left too. But, I'll have to look for it, if it's even there.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Celeborn did end up leaving, but I think it was sometime long after Sam had left.

I also thought that somewhere it said Cirdan remained until all the elves (or the ones that could and would) left too. But, I'll have to look for it, if it's even there.

Actually, for all that we know, Celeborn and Cirdan left on the same boat. I'm not necessarily tied to that idea, but it would explain the statements concerning both without conflicting with the other.

[Lhunardawen]

But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you. (Cirdan to Gandalf)

Now what does "I will await you" mean as Cirdan said it? He would wait until Gandalf finishes his task and have his ship back to Valinor prepared by then? (Ooh...more Elven foresight!) Or is it, "I will wait, then we'll go back to Valinor together?"

[Essex]

Let's talk about Sam. He's far more interesting that those Elves anyway......

In my view he DID depart for the West, as why would Tolkien put this in the Tale of the Years if it didn't happen? I can understand why Tolkien wrote it this way, as isn't it actually Hobbits who have written and kept the book (and therefore the tales of the years) up to date? Therefore, if they didn't see him actually depart, they would 'presume' this was the case as he was heading for the Havens when he gave the Book to Elanor. ie

1482 - Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Sam-wise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers

And of course Sam left on the same day he did for his other journey, so romantically I believe he was taking another long journey, this time his last.

But I've always wondered if Sam saw Frodo again. In my heart I would like to think so, but isn't Frodo's journey to the West signifying his death? I'm sure someone's mentioned on this site that that's what Tolkien alluded to in one of his Letters.

It was 61 years between Frodo and Sam leaving Middle-earth. I'm not sure if Frodo could have lasted that long with his wounds of Sword, Sting and Bite to contend with. I hope he did, but I wonder if Sam's next view of Frodo was his Grave.........

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Formendacil]

Also, as Sam tells Elanor (and us) in the Epilogue (unpublished, but indicative of Tolkien's feelings on the subject), there would be Elves (even some Noldor at that) in Middle-earth for many long years to come. Indeed, I would say that there are STILL Elves in this middle-earth of ours, and that means that Cirdan is still here somewhere, probably at some small fishing town on the British coast.

QUOTE]

Ooh what a fab thought ... it would have to be Cornwall or Wales - westward and Celtic (just in case he slipped into Sindarin ).

[Essex]

For me it's got to be Southend-on-Sea!!!!!

(a little joke from an Essex boy to my countrymen and women)

But, back to Frodo either healing or Dying. What about Saruman foretelling
him (rather nastily, I believe) that he would have neither a healthy life or a long one?

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Also, as Sam tells Elanor (and us) in the Epilogue (unpublished, but indicative of Tolkien's feelings on the subject), there would be Elves (even some Noldor at that) in Middle-earth for many long years to come.

Where can one read this unpublished Epilogue? I one of the HoME volumes? I don't recall it, but would LOVE to read it!

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Sardy

Where can one read this unpublished Epilogue? I one of the HoME volumes? I don't recall it, but would LOVE to read it!

Yup, in Sauron Defeated, if I remember correctly.

Back to the Ring.

It's evident that the Ring had a much greater effect on Smeagol, because he was mean spirited to begin with, and began his ownership of it with murder. In fact, I'd make so bold as to say that he would have been at the same stage of enslavement by it as soon as he saw it (i.e. he wanted it, and wasn't prepared to let anyone else have it) as Frodo was when he got to the Crack ("the Ring is mine!") Bilbo on the other hand was freely able to give it up even after 60 years.

As a result of that, it's effect in delaying the ageing of Bilbo and (to a lesser extent) Frodo would have been considerably less, and it's highly unlikely that a 500 year lifespan was going to be their lot.

Nonetheless, it did have an effect on them. So much so that they were unable to live out the rest of their lives in spiritual peace. Moreso on Frodo, on account of weakening by his other wounds (the most critical of which appears to have been the Morgul knife). In Sam's case, he had difficulty handing it back even after so short an ownership. I've no idea how long more he could have gone before he would flat-out have been incapable of doing so, but I'd speculate "not very".

Going West was an opportunity to attempt to shrug off the effects in "Arda Unmarred" (and this is where reading the Silm and HoME comes in useful), where no illness can come. The obvious long term effect would have been to return F & B to the "unfallen" state of Man, where they would voluntarily give up their live. It's difficult to say how long this may have taken, and even more difficult to say how long before they would have surrendered their lives after that.

If Sam had gone (and I believe JRRT left that one deliberately open) no doubt the same fate was in store for him, and part of the healing would have been a release from his "dependency" on his Master.

Phew!