Sauron Diminished?

[Boromir88]

I believe this is the quote narfforc is talking about...

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished."

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm, maybe there is a much more simple explanation than the one I offered earlier.

even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished."

It's quite possible that Tolkien is here referring to the fact that nobody else could use the One Ring, that only Sauron could use the power within it to the full, and that if anyone else used it, then the "rapport" would mean that ultimately, they would be doing Sauron's work. Or does it mean that both powers existed in parallel?

[Mithalwen]

Could it be not diminished in the sense that the power was still in existence while the ring existed? He just cannot fully access it?

[Boromir88]

I'll finish off the paragraph since it seems to be of some importance now. Tolkien brings up the two ways that this "bond" or "relationship" between Sauron and the Ring could be broken...

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in "rapport" with himself: he was not "diminished." Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. (Sounds something that Saruman tried to accomplish). This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his siutation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to control the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annhiliated, then its power would be dissolved, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. Italics are things I added in.

I think what Tolkien is saying is what you basically said in your first post Lalwende. I don't take it as saying that "with and without the ring Sauron has enhanced powers." I take it more as "With that ring he has enhanced powers. Without possessing the Ring, the powers are bonded to Sauron."

For example, Frodo has the ring, he doesn't get the enhanced powers the ring gave to Sauron, those powers are bonded to Sauron. However, to break that bond (and become the new "master of the Ring") you could try to pull a Saruman; learn about the Ring, study Sauron, and try to challenge him, and overthrow him. Or you could "unmake" the ring, but that would not give you the "enhanced powers" that would just break the bond between the ring, and Sauron.

Edit: Basically saying the Ring's powers are loyal to Sauron. Just by possessing the Ring, the Ring will not give you the powers it gives Sauron. To get those powers you have to challenge Sauron one-on-one, and overthrow him, taking his place.

[obloquy]

Sauron needed The Ring to pull the rug out from under those few with the power to defy him.

Also, quite apart from the fact that The Ring enhanced his power, he could never be secure in his domination if it was still in someone else's possession. There would always be the potential for him to be overthrown.

[Boromir88]

Yes, obloquy, there were two weaknesses, which are listed above, in where Sauron could be beaten (and beaten for good only disappearing into a shadow, inaffective). One of which was destroying the ring, but this thought never crossed his mind, and figured he didn't have to worry about it...

But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made -- and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of ANY (emphasis mine) will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.

So, that left one way (In Sauron's mind) that he could be beaten, someone would physically use the ring to overthrow him, which he tried to make sure didn't happen.

[Lhunardawen]

I am once again reminded of Middle Earth being Morgoth's Ring. If the One Ring is anywhere in Middle Earth, but apart from Sauron, then Its powers are still "property of Sauron." Probably far-flung, but does it make sense that since Sauron was Morgoth's servant, the Ring that is Middle Earth was passed on to him when Morgoth was cast into the Void? Thus, no matter where the One Ring is, It is still his, and he remains the only one who can wield It...as long as It is within the Ring of Middle Earth. This is probably why giving up the One Ring to the Sea was considered in getting rid of It, because the Sea is not anymore under Morgoth's, and in effect Sauron's, dominion.

As for getting the One Ring back, it is not really necessary for Sauron to do that because of the previous explanations (which are very good, if I may say so). But since he knows fear just as his master Morgoth did, he has to get It back thinking that someone might be able to "pull" the Ring off him.

[obloquy]

I don't think Sauron inherited "Morgoth's Ring."

But since he knows fear just as his master Morgoth did, he has to get It back thinking that someone might be able to "pull" the Ring off him.

Also because evil is often possessive and greedy.

Boromir88: I don't understand how your post is a reply to mine.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

But since he knows fear just as his master Morgoth did, he has to get It back thinking that someone might be able to "pull" the Ring off him.

Agreed. Sauron's biggest fear is that he will be usurped via another's possession of the Ring.

And regarding Sauron's power: assume that his innate power is x. When he created the Ring, he put some of x into it. The total is still x, yet some of x is within the Ring and the remainder is within his being. The Ring enhanced his abilities - allowing him to control others, which is why he created the Ring - but this did not increase the value of x.

Though separated physically from the Ring, Sauron still maintained the power of x. I think that when it states that his power was waxing, it meant that he was accumulating armies, slaves, hatching plots, casting spells (or the Sauron-equivalent), etc. He still had the power of x, but after his defeat and separation from the Ring, he had to rest and recharge his batteries.

When the Ring was destroyed, it wasn't that Sauron was diminished as in 'x minus Ring.' His innate power, whether in one being or distributed amongst himself, the Ring, controlling the wills of others, etc, still had to add up to x (100%). He could not exist at less than 100%, or at least exist in Arda.

Morgoth, who mirrors Sauron, of course, distributed his X amongst many things, beings, projects, etc so that not only was he tied to the world, but also the power within his actual being was reduced (again, the total was still X).

Hopefully that makes some sense.