LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 05 - The Window on the West

[Mithalwen]

These are nice reminders of some wonderful exchanges - I think that Sam and Faramir are two of Tolkien's most rounded, complex and developed characters (even though Faramir's development was at one remove ) And Sam lecturing Faramir is such a vivid image - you can just see it happening as you read. Despite the disparity in rank, their's are perhaps the most free and frank exchange of opinions in the whole shebang.

[Lalwendë]

Sam is one character who I cannot imagine being too afraid to challenge anyone. He questions Aragorn in the Prancing Pony, listens in to both the Council of Elrond and to Gandalf at Bag End, and remains suspicious of Gollum despite what Frodo tells him. He is a good example of the robust kind of character who is never afraid to speak his or her mind no matter what the situation may be, and pays no heed to rank or social status. I have to like Sam for this characteristic, though it has to be said that he is a benevolent example; in real life many such plain speaking characters can be, shall we say, 'difficult'?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I have to like Sam for this characteristic, though it has to be said that he is a benevolent example; in real life many such plain speaking characters can be, shall we say, 'difficult'?

He is saved by his self deprecation and his good nature and humour - otherwise he might seem a tad negative. He know the situation but he gets on with it rather than whines.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would associate the kind of cheeky confidence Sam shows with youthfulness. Granted, he wasn't that much younger than Frodo, only 12 years, but certainly by no means old by hobbit standards. He is admonished by Faramir, who tells him that he (yet) lacks the wisdom his master has.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

But there is also something else going on in this classification of Men into three kinds - it is the same classification that we find in the Elves of the First Age - the ‘High’ Elves who went to Valinor, the ‘Middle’ Elves, the Elves of the Twighlight, the Sindar, who began the journey but left off part way, & the Avari, the Unwilling, Elves of the Darkness, who refused the Light. Faramir is projecting the history (& the choices) of the Elder Children upon the Younger. Again an idealisation of the past to the detriment of the present. Even the ‘Blessing’ he proclaims before meat looks backwards

I thought I’d go back to what davem posted at the beginning of the thread as it has started me thinking about the nature of Gondor as a state. The way Faramir categorises Men is indeed reminiscent of how the Elves are categorised. The Numenoreans are ‘high’ just as the Eldar are high, and the symbol of Numenor is used by Men instead of the symbol of Valinor.

Just as the different groups of Elves count themselves as ‘kin’ or not, so do Men, or at least, the Men of Gondor do this. The Rohirrim seem more concerned with their everyday existence, and though they revere and respect their ancestors, they see the past as very much behind them, as seen in Eomer’s wonder at meeting Aragorn. In Rohan the old stories are still simple tales, whereas in Gondor they seem to have taken on a scripture-like quality.

I definitely get the sense that Gondor at some point in history had been trying to follow the Elven ideal; Men seem to have been sub-divided in the eyes of Gondorians into various cultural categories, those who did not leave for Numenor are referred to as ‘refusing the call’, and then become ‘of the Twilight’. Most importantly for the eventual decline of Gondor, Men spend far too long devoted to preserving the past and not nurturing the future.

'Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things.

What has happened in Gondor is that the people have mingled with the ‘middle’ Men, and this seems to have been necessary, as their own peoples were diminishing, not raising families but spending their years contemplating the nature of life and death, the very notions which eventually destroyed the fabric of Numenor in the first place. It seems that even the spirit of Numenor would have been destroyed had the exiles not mingled with other Men.

In essence, it is a good thing that the former Numenoreans are now long fallen from their high positions, as their culture would have died out long ago. This would eventually mean that Aragorn would have had no Gondor to return to, no people to lead. These people had to accept that fighting was necessary to their survival, that it was more important than learning, and perhaps they do indeed accept this; we have to remember we are hearing these words through Faramir, a man who would much rather be learning than fighting, who seems to yearn for the past, and who clearly has read more than most on the history of his country.

It is not said that evil arts were ever practised in Gondor, or that the Nameless One was ever named in honour there; and the old wisdom and beauty brought out of the West remained long in the realm of the sons of Elendil the Fair, and they linger there still. Yet even so it was Gondor that brought about its own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking that the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.

'Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anarion had no heir.

So Faramir acknowledges that the Numenoreans in exile declined and did not progress and so their culture eventually withered. Like the Elves, they sought to preserve, and like them too, they dreamed, but a little too much. Men are mortal and do not have the endless time that the Elves possess. By seeking to preserve the past, and indeed to live in the past, just as the Elves do, they brought about the decline of their own culture. And these scenes are played out in the damaged and derelict beauty of Ithilien with its forgotten water gardens, so even the surroundings talk of what once was. But these things, though works of art and beauty, are symbols of a culture which had turned its back on the ever present danger it faced.

I thought I’d pick up on this point as it brings up some interesting ideas about the state of Gondor, not just on the character of Faramir. This chapter reveals a lot about what kind of place Gondor is, and at this point in the narrative it is important to know exactly who and what we are rooting for; soon we will be plunged into the terror of the wilds once more, and before long we will be at Minas Tirith itself.

Men now fear and misdoubt the Elves, and yet know little of them. And we of Gondor grow like other Men, like the men of Rohan; for even they, who are foes of the Dark Lord, shun the Elves and speak of the Golden Wood with dread.

'Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lorien, seldom to return. Not I. For I deem it perilous now for mortal man wilfully to seek out the Elder People. Yet I envy you that have spoken with the White Lady."

I think that Faramir fully recognises exactly why Gondor declined, not all his words betray idealism, some betray hard facts about the history of his home, and he is also justified in thinking the Elves to be perilous if some who leave Gondor to seek them never return. Yet he sees that friendship with the Elves is something high and noble, and he can see that there is something essentially good in being more like the Rohirrim; at least his people still have the memory of older glories, and can move forward as Gondorians, not Numenoreans in exile.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I would associate the kind of cheeky confidence Sam shows with youthfulness. Granted, he wasn't that much younger than Frodo, only 12 years, but certainly by no means old by hobbit standards. He is admonished by Faramir, who tells him that he (yet) lacks the wisdom his master has.

I suppose this is true, but nevertheless, Sam always seems the most "grown up" of the hobbits to me becasue he has worked for his living and is far more in touch with the realities of life as experienced by most people, than any of the other hobbits - or perhaps indeed any other character. May be this is what gives him confidence - for in a sense, someone who works an honest trade is noone's inferior.

He has an inherent sense of what he feels is right and he does not let any rank or system of behviour to get in the way - although I can think of few people less anarchic. For all his "mister Frodos", he has no fear to speak out to Aragorn, Elrond, Faramir... (the young hobbit who was giving him "sauce"!).

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Faramir... (the young hobbit who was giving him "sauce"!).

Actually, I just remembered something: Sam and Faramir were born in the same year. I realise that that has pretty much nothing to do with anything, but it is interesting, is it not, that Tolkien's two most "flesh-outed" characters (to use other people's terms, not mine) were born in the same year?

[davem]

Two quotes strike me as significant in the light of what we've been discussing re: Faramir & his attitude to the past. First is his words to Frodo about his desire to see a reestablshment of the Gondor of the past:

"For myself," said Faramir, "I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens

Second is Denethor's speech to Gandalf:

'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?'
'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.'

Both father & son have a desire to see things revert to the way they were in the past once the war is over. Both are conservative (note small 'c') & neither of them desires novelty. Of course, while Denethor wishes the status quo he (& his Longfathers) had known - ie the Rule of the Stewards - to continue, his son wishes to return to an earlier time, when there was a High King of Numenorean descent on the throne. But both share the Numenorean trait of valuing the past above the present, & certainly above the future - which only offers any possibility of hope to the degree that it can be made as much like the past as possible.

It makes me wonder how alike Denethor & Faramir really were - though I seem to remember Gandalf remarking that both men had inherited more of the blood of Numenor than Boromir had. In fact, as an aside, it does seem that Boromir was more 'forward looking than his father or his brother - didn't Boromir ask Denethor why the family remained 'merely' Stewards, & had not claimed the Kingship?

[Lathriel]

Maybe because Faramir and Denethor are so alike it is a reason why Denethor doesn't like his younger son. He might have seen too much of himself in Faramir.

A favourite part of this chapter is the description of the rangers hideout. It is the perfect place to stay when you don't want to be seen.

I would also like to add that I wouldn't mind living in Ithilien.(I peaceful times) It seems like such a wonderful place.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Actually, I just remembered something: Sam and Faramir were born in the same year. I realise that that has pretty much nothing to do with anything,

Except that it was a good vintage... and maybe it was deliberate (not from the outset but when Tolkien drew up the tale of years) to draw paralels between them.

[HerenIstarion]

... and running hard to catch up

Disclaimer first: I love Faramir. What to follow is not an essay in castin slurs upon him.

Now to one thing which struck me: Faramir is a bit of a play-actor and 'self-made man' (in a mental sense). He trains his mind as much as he supposedly trains his body, pursuing perfection. He tries on the mask of a better person, and lives up to the standard.

I refer to the following lines:

'But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway

The general impression: Faramir is, of course, boasting and showing off, but, also, setting himself another standard, another height to conquer. (Just as good he manages to conquer it when the Ring presents itself)

Denethor is not blind. What I rather would praise in Faramir, Denethor states as case for indictment:

I know you well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death

Emphasis mine

Now I run ahead of things a bit (or even a lot, since it is the next book where the quote is taken from), but that is an accussation to strike where it will hurt, it seems, a blame of 'appearing', but not, in fact 'being' is what Faramir would fear most.

We are alike with him in this respect, only I fail to live up to the standard more often than not (I refer to 'Masks' thread as well here)

Denethor loves his both sons. He's desparate to find someone else besides himself to blame for Boromir's death. I suppose it is fairly unconsious too. But this also for later discussion

cheers