The Emblems of Religion don't belong ... or do they?

[littlemanpoet]

One word - "Yet."

You may not know that you've challenged me onto one of my favorite hobby horses.

I usually think scientifically. I appreciate the scientific method and all that has resulted from its use. I do not, however, expect the processes of scientific thought (observation, setting up experiments, hypothesis, deduction, induction, empirical evidence tabulated) to reveal all mysteries, just give it enough time. The realm of science is the material world. It is "at sea" in terms of the soul, the spirit, and other such unquantifiable entities. Or do you doubt the existence of the soul or spirit because science can't verify them?

I wonder if the archetypes that work well as described above are these.

If the popularity and staying power of Tolkien is any indication, I think the answer to your question is a resounding "YES".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

You may not know that you've challenged me onto one of my favorite hobby horses.

Same here - same horse, different color.

I usually think scientifically. I appreciate the scientific method and all that has resulted from its use. I do not, however, expect the processes of scientific thought (observation, setting up experiments, hypothesis, deduction, induction, empirical evidence tabulated) to reveal all mysteries, just give it enough time.

Why not? Besides the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle thing, I think that we will know more about 'mysteries' 100 years from now than we know today. Surely some things may be trivial to 'investigate,' like just why did Tolkien choose to have Gandalf as a grey wizard, but I assume that given time, we will have a much more detailed explanation about the bigger issues. That being said, this is not to say that we will not be finding more mysteries along the way.

Newtonian physics at one time was the end-all, be-all, then someone, not satisfied with that, just had to keep looking and now we have quantum physics, which is a really odd and mysterious place in itself. It would be important to note that this person/people lacked cable TV and access to this forum, and so obviously had too much time on his/her hands. And you know what the Devil does with that...

The realm of science is the material world. It is "at sea" in terms of the soul, the spirit, and other such unquantifiable entities. Or do you doubt the existence of the soul or spirit because science can't verify them?

Yes. It's sad in some ways, but for me this is where the data points. Can't help it, but was born a skeptic. Show me evidence that a soul or spirit exists - at what wavelength does it exist? We can see heat, spectra of light, other radiation, gamma rays from when the universe exploded at the beginning of time, weigh an electron (I think), detect subatomic quarks, yet the soul still eludes us. Note that I am always open to new evidence and arguments, as this is what science is all about, but I will always need to 'see to believe' - and I'll still have some doubts.

[littlemanpoet]

Show me evidence that a soul or spirit exists - at what wavelength does it exist?

Sorry, can't help you there, since the soul and spirit are immaterial, outside of the whole evidence thing. Do you doubt the existence of love? mercy? justice? These also are immaterial, and the "evidence" for them can be explained by other factors every bit as easily as with soul and spirit.

[Formendacil]

To take this slightly away from its religious mysteries overtones, has it occurred to you, Alatar, that even if science solves some of today's mysteries, that this will only open up new questions?

Isn't that the nature of mysteries? You solve one, and discover three more? Science will NEVER be done explaining away the mysteries of this universe because every new discovery will reveal more mysteries.

And as far as spiritual matters go though, I doubt that science can ever be brought to bear on them. Some things are a matter of faith and NOT a matter of matter. "Logic", that is the scientific process, may possibly be applicable, but I rather suspect that the central core of religion will retain many of its mysteries.

[Lalwendë]

alatar is right to say that quantum physics is a very strange area of science, bordering at times on the issues which religion also tries to approach; and it takes a great 'leap of faith' to attempt to understand some of the concepts involved. The language used by quantum physicists is in itself mystical; the Walls of the Universe is a phrase I particularly like. Theoretical science is probably best expressed in the language of maths, which brings the circle back around to mystical concepts in belief involving numbers and combinations of letters. The two, science and religion, are man's attempt to explain what is around us (and what is behind and before us...and what is not around us). I do not separate the two, as I do not think they always negate each other.

To look at a well known example, scientific theories such as Darwin's are not necessarily compatible with religious theories of creationism, but they have caused us to re-examine religious texts; in this case, the six days of creation are interpreted as six ages of creation. To some, it may be wrong to re-examine a religious text, but consider the amount of scholarship over the 2000 years of Christianity, and it is impossible that re-examination could not have happened many times in those years. The Christianity we have today is a result of 2000 years of thought and without that scholarship it is likely that the religion would have become stilted and eventually died out.

What I am trying to say is that religions do not stand still, just as science does not stand still. Both have much in common, and we need both. Even the atheist has a belief.

My take on this comes from my own viewpoint as someone who never could accept the rules, regulations and dogmas of one particular religion, and who finds all religions equal.

I think that despite the seeming worship of pragmatism in the world today, we all know or hope that there is more to life. We can find that through science and exploring the far reaches of the universe, and equally we can find it through prayer.

[alatar]

Thanks all for the replies.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Sorry, can't help you there, since the soul and spirit are immaterial, outside of the whole evidence thing. Do you doubt the existence of love? mercy? justice? These also are immaterial, and the "evidence" for them can be explained by other factors every bit as easily as with soul and spirit.

I do not doubt that they exist, but each can be reduced to biology.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

To take this slightly away from its religious mysteries overtones, has it occurred to you, Alatar, that even if science solves some of today's mysteries, that this will only open up new questions?

Agree - as I had previously stated. And if they ever 'wrap it all up,' there still remains the question regarding balrog wings...

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Isn't that the nature of mysteries? You solve one, and discover three more? Science will NEVER be done explaining away the mysteries of this universe because every new discovery will reveal more mysteries.

And as far as spiritual matters go though, I doubt that science can ever be brought to bear on them. Some things are a matter of faith and NOT a matter of matter. "Logic", that is the scientific process, may possibly be applicable, but I rather suspect that the central core of religion will retain many of its mysteries

Agree. Religion can hold to its mysteries as long as it likes. Recently I've read that 'belief' and 'faith' actually impart a survival advantage, and so what's not to like about that?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The two, science and religion, are man's attempt to explain what is around us (and what is behind and before us...and what is not around us). I do not separate the two, as I do not think they always negate each other.

One of the big differences between the two is that one can be used to predict the future with some degree of certainty. If you or I perform an experiment under the same conditions, we will obtain the same results with a probabilty that is more than chance. If we perform the experiment 100 times, we have an idea how many times the experiment would behave as expected.

However, if you and I were to perform the same ritual (or pray, or whatever the equivalent would be), we have no reason to believe that we can get the same result. Also, multiple attempts do not increase the possibility of success more than random chance would indicate.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

To look at a well known example, scientific theories such as Darwin's are not necessarily compatible with religious theories of creationism, but they have caused us to re-examine religious texts; in this case, the six days of creation are interpreted as six ages of creation. To some, it may be wrong to re-examine a religious text, but consider the amount of scholarship over the 2000 years of Christianity, and it is impossible that re-examination could not have happened many times in those years. The Christianity we have today is a result of 2000 years of thought and without that scholarship it is likely that the religion would have become stilted and eventually died out.

Changing inspired scriptures/beliefs derived from the same could be a slippery slope - where do you stop? And how do you 'test' revelations? Evolution would be thrown out if the data indicated - surely it would take some large evidence, but eventually it would be done. For religion, what evidence would be used to convince those who require none?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What I am trying to say is that religions do not stand still, just as science does not stand still. Both have much in common, and we need both. Even the atheist has a belief.

Agreed - though some may not admit that a particular religion has changed, or should I say 'evolved?'

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think that despite the seeming worship of pragmatism in the world today, we all know or hope that there is more to life. We can find that through science and exploring the far reaches of the universe, and equally we can find it through prayer.

Nice thought. Wish I could get as wild about science as some seem to be about their religion.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Nice thought. Wish I could get as wild about science as some seem to be about their religion.

Try a little astronomy - if that doesn't blow your mind, I don't know what will ... and it is still a field where and enthusiastic amateur can make a difference, and you could put the elvish names on your star chart