Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by tar-ancalime

That's interesting, because Aragorn was also alone with Eowyn (ROTK EE, when he "tucks her in" and she tells him about her dream), and while watching this scene for the first time I actually thought it was odd, that the travel-stained (if battle-proven) stranger should be allowed into the room with the White Lady of Rohan while she is sleeping. And although he doesn't behave as tenderly towards Eowyn as he does towards Arwen, it's clear that Eowyn reads something into the attention he pays her.

Was it more brotherly? Or, because of their age/maturity difference, did he not see her as a possible mate/companion but as a little girl child? Not that he was ever considering 'unloving' Arwen.

And it was posted here (#30) regarding the strangeness of Eowyn's sleeping arrangement.

[Lalwendë]

About Aragorn being alone with Eowyn, I found that they presented her as leading a less 'sheltered' life than Arwen; she is seen serving drinks in a hall full of shouting drunken men immediately before the 'sleeping' scene in the Hall, which would suggest she is more used to being around such company. Though it did seem as though she'd been turfed out of her bedchamber and made to sleep on the sofa!

The scenes dealing with Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn do make it clear just who he loves, and Aragorn is shown to behave in a gentlemanly fashion to Eowyn. I did not detect any instance in the films where he could have been accused of leading her into thinking he might have had feelings for her. It is also made clear how much Aragorn and Arwen love one another, and the nature of Arwen's sacrifice can be deduced. That I found to be handled well. Yet a few people have asked me why Aragorn didn't choose Eowyn once he had met her; perhaps that says a lot more about those viewers than about either film or book!

[Mithalwen]

I would have said there was a fairly obvious chemistry in TTT - far more than between Aragorn and Arwen - although I have warmed to Liv Tyler since I have learned more of how she put the breaks on the distortion of Arwen's character - I think it is one area where the late cast change shows up. While I would never swap back, for me Vggo IS Aragorn, I think Liv and Stuart Townsend would have been a more convincing couple, and I would love to see Miranda Otto and Viggo in a film where they were a couple....

[the phantom]

I did not detect any instance in the films where he could have been accused of leading her into thinking he might have had feelings for her.

Ha.

Remember in TTT when he rides off to meet the warg attack? He turns his horse around for a bit to lock eyes with her before he goes. I would definitely consider that "leading".

I mean, my friends are always ribbing me about liking some girl or flirting with some girl, and when I ask why in the world they think that, they give me lame answers like "Oh- you were looking at her. We saw you." I answer "Um, yes, it's hard to talk to someone and not look at the same time," and they say, "No, you glanced at her sometimes even when she wasn't talking." When they say that I just have to throw my hands up in disgust. I'm sure there are others who have had similar experiences.

For some people, all you have to do is glance at someone to be "leading", and Aragorn did more than glance. He gazed back at her before doing something dangerous. You can read quite a bit from that. It easily qualifies as leading in most people's books. His look said "This might be the last time I see you- just in case I die- I just wanted you to know that, um, well, you know..." or at the least his look said "I don't want to part with you, I hope I see you again."

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Remember in TTT when he rides off to meet the warg attack? He turns his horse around for a bit to lock eyes with her before he goes. I would definitely consider that "leading".

Thinking about it, I can see what you mean about this 'look'. There was a definite chemistry between the two actors, but a lot of the time I interpreted Aragorn's treatment of Eowyn in the film as more that he was concerned for her, a quite determined yet fragile young woman thrown into the midst of conflict. Remember his concern for Arwen when she turned up to 'rescue' Frodo (he was also probably wondering which broom cupboard she had locked Glorfindel in, sorry...couldn't resist that... ) . Reading the characters as they are presented, his 'looks' could easily be seen as him expressing concern. In this respect, looking back at Eowyn before the warg attack could also be that he wishes to impress upon her the danger she is in; after all, she has just expressed her objection to being asked to lead the women and children to Helm's Deep.

When a person interprets a 'look', which as you say can be entirely innocent, as something 'more', doesn't that say a lot more about the person who is receiving the glance than the person giving it? Like you say, you've been accused of 'giving looks' where they have not been intended.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Thinking about it, I can see what you mean about this 'look'. There was a definite chemistry between the two actors, but a lot of the time I interpreted Aragorn's treatment of Eowyn in the film as more that he was concerned for her, a quite determined yet fragile young woman thrown into the midst of conflict. Remember his concern for Arwen when she turned up to 'rescue' Frodo (he was also probably wondering which broom cupboard she had locked Glorfindel in, sorry...couldn't resist that... ) . Reading the characters as they are presented, his 'looks' could easily be seen as him expressing concern. In this respect, looking back at Eowyn before the warg attack could also be that he wishes to impress upon her the danger she is in; after all, she has just expressed her objection to being asked to lead the women and children to Helm's Deep.

I'm agreeing with the phantom - PJ definitely (and purposely) muddied the waters in regards to the Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn triangle. As I remember, this was to add tension to the second movie as non-readers might wonder, "which woman is Aragorn going to choose? (and just when is Gimli going to say something funny again?)"

The losing and regaining of the Evenstar necklace (I guess) was to show Aragorn reconsidering the Arwen deal. Luckily for all of us he had some really nice dreams while floating unconsciously down the river, and so he retakes the Evenstar as Eowyn looks on.

When a person interprets a 'look', which as you say can be entirely innocent, as something 'more', doesn't that say a lot more about the person who is receiving the glance than the person giving it? Like you say, you've been accused of 'giving looks' where they have not been intended.

Agreed. Obviously 'the look' is in the eye of the beholder, or beholdee, or something. But on the other hand, sometimes you don't realize what you yourself are communicating via your facial expressions. The sage Bonnie Raitt once sang "...We stare just a little too long...Maybe they're seeing something we don't, Darlin'."

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm agreeing with the phantom - PJ definitely (and purposely) muddied the waters in regards to the Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn triangle. As I remember, this was to add tension to the second movie as non-readers might wonder, "which woman is Aragorn going to choose? (and just when is Gimli going to say something funny again?)"

The losing and regaining of the Evenstar necklace (I guess) was to show Aragorn reconsidering the Arwen deal. Luckily for all of us he had some really nice dreams while floating unconsciously down the river, and so he retakes the Evenstar as Eowyn looks on.

I've found this thread very interesting, alatar, because it considers how we go about interpreting movies and books, even if you do suppose that hoary age interferes with what we think!

The point about Jackson wanting or needing some dramatic tension in TTT is well taken. The movie lags and, I would venture to say, while hoping not to be inundated with rotten tomatoes, that the book does also. (I notice that our Chapter by Chapter reading group certainly has bogged down and lost its former enthusiastic rate of posting.) But this could not be the only reason.

Now that I have people's hackles raised, let me get back to your main idea, the depiction of the romance of Arwen and Aragorn. As you suggest, this is the high romance of fantasy. It is not particularly well represented in modern fiction, where
faithful, unconsumated love is not high on the agenda these days. Nor, for that matter, is even faithful consumated love. Modern notions of chastity are vague and where they exist, they tend to be more limited than medieval concepts of chastity, which involved more than simply sexual self control or physical virginity. In a culture where even the Church finds pre-marital celebacy a hard sell, what's a poor film maker to do to put forward the idea without drawing ridicule and laughter?

I wonder if Jackson didn't spice things up suggestively in order to make the relationships have a more modern 'feel', just as he souped up Arwen to make her appear less traditional and passive. A matter, as you suggest, of the filmmaker trying to help his audience appreciate something a bit beyond ordinary realism.

Just a thought!