LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 07 - Journey to the Cross-Roads

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I have always thought that Frodo always saw through Gollum/Sméagol. He knows Gollums capabilities and his limits, it seems to me.

Through the purgatory torture of the Ring (which, in Rivendell, Frodo accepted as a task rather than a possession), he becomes more Elvish as the quest proceeds. This is how I read all of the things Frodo says and does, including his words to Faramir regarding the blindfolding.

This goes for me as well, that Frodo had some sort of wisdom or special understanding pertaining to Gollem. He paid heed to Gandalf's advice about Gollem and, listening and watching, came to accept something about their relationship. Without wanting to suggest anything too explicitly religious, it often reminds me of Christ's attitude towards Judas during the Last Supper.

I have been wondering how exactly to share my comments about this chapter, but I suppose that davem's plea for participation in the Chapter by Chapter discussion is as good a place as any to pick up a thread. davem postulates a reason for the dwindling responses to the chapter discussions.

I wonder if the movies haven't played some part in shaping people's view of the story by emphasising the Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli storyline & making it seem more interesting.

On the other hand maybe Sam got it right when he said to Frodo that at this point some readers/hearers of the story would say 'Shut the book now Dad, we don't want to read anymore.'

Is it that people find the Frodo/Sam/Gollum storyline too 'dark' & oppressive, or is it that they simply find it too boring? If its the latter, what does that say about us as readers & as Tolkien fans? I have to say that this part of the story has become increasingly meaningful & significant to me as I've grown older, so I've actually been looking forward to this part of the story. How about others? Maybe a more significant question would be, who do readers consider the 'real' hero & central character of LotR to be - Frodo or Aragorn - & how much of a part has PJ played in shaping that opinion?

For me, it has nothing to do with the film, so I shall let this little rant at PJ go by the board.

The wearying struggle of Frodo and Sam and Gollem too has an eerie appeal to me. My problem does not lie with the bleakness of their quest. It lies with some of the techniques used in this chapter.

It is possible, as davem has reminded us, that Tolkien realised he needed an extra day in this part of the story and so he was thrown upon description more than action or dialogue. However, what the description and narration accomplish for me--and I make clear that this is just my response--is a breaking of the 'willing suspension of disbelief.'

What do I mean by this? I mean that it foregrounds the typology and geography in such a way as to highlight it beyond some of the earlier descriptions. I become uneasy that this chapter suddenly bears an onerous weight of portent and symbolism. (Interestingly, I don't feel this way about the next chapter, perhaps because the imagery is blended with action, as was the imagery of Lothlorien with action. I am explicitly reminded of Lothlorien because both there and on the stairs of Cirith Ungol time is slowed down. But this is to get ahead of myself.)

I guess what I mean is that all the imagery of darkness, of crossing over into Mordor and the dark lands of the Enemy, coupled with the sudden light shining on the flowered crown of the vandalised statue, is too much. (I like how Tolkien uses the concept of grattiffi and the mock eye on the statue, however, as that is unexpected and unique, a very modern touch used with understatement.) I become too aware that this is no longer the imaginary terrain of Middle-earth but now is a hell wrought by Incarnate Evil. If there had been more development paid to the relationship of Sam, Frodo and Gollem, then I think this description would have been put in a context which would make it work better. For me at least, this chapter needs a leaven which would make the symbolism less 'obvious'.

And my hesitation in posting earlier to this chapter has to do with my unease over saying this here, not with my preference for the Aragorn/Leoglas/Gimli quest.

[Formendacil]

I continue to be amazed at the amount of things that can be dug out of what remains to me as one of the more insignificant chapters... Had all this effort been applied to some the weightier chapters (at least to my mind), such as the Faramir chapters, I can imagine that there would be a lot more to ponder concerning them.

My thanks, therefore, to everyone who had taken the time to post here. I've been made a lot more aware of some of the themes that run through this chapter. It remains one of my least-favourite chapters, but thanks to the group of you, I am more aware of what it comprises- and therefore have a greater idea of what the REST of the book contains, and therefore why I prefer most of it over this chapter.

Thanks again, all!

[Lalwendë]

A final go at the chapter...

Originally Posted by Lathriel

Although Gollum might have heard what Frodo said his dark side of his nature was taking over again. This dark side might have made Gollum twist Frodo's words. Or he also could have decided that he would forget these words since they would only complicate the desicion of taking the hobbits to Shelob or not.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

This goes for me as well, that Frodo had some sort of wisdom or special understanding pertaining to Gollem. He paid heed to Gandalf's advice about Gollem and, listening and watching, came to accept something about their relationship.

Thinking some more about what Frodo's words revealed about the relationship, I think it shows that Frodo views Gollum ultimately as a useful tool, a 'resource' (to use vile management language) in achieving his end, his goal. To Sam and Faramir, he must outwardly seem as though he is thoroughly compassionate about Gollum, and he does this by drawing attention to the fact that Gollum has also been a Ring Bearer, that they have shared this burden, and that Frodo could one day be like Gollum. He plays on their sympathies. He has to do this as they simply would not see why Frodo would want to make practical use of Gollum's skill and knowledge; they would tell Frodo he had chosen the wrong person for the job, and Faramir may even kill Gollum.

Frodo can see something in Gollum that the others cannot, but whether it is something spiritual in nature I am not altogether convinced; I think that the way Frodo spoke in Gollum's presence reveals something much more hard edged about his relationship with him. Frodo knows that only Gollum has the knowledge of the secret way into Mordor, and so he has to 'recruit' him for that reason, not out of pity. He certainly remembers and takes heed of Gandalf's words, but whether he also 'sees' the possible outcome, I am not entirely convinced.

And alas, he is not quite as perceptive and clever as he thinks he might be, as Gollum hides a tremendous secret in planning to take them through Shelob's lair. Gollum does well to keep quiet when Frodo speaks to Faramir about the blindfolds; here are two very clever characters each trying to use the other under the influence of the ring.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

A final go at the chapter...

Thinking some more about what Frodo's words revealed about the relationship, I think it shows that Frodo views Gollum ultimately as a useful tool, a 'resource' (to use vile management language) in achieving his end, his goal. To Sam and Faramir, he must outwardly seem as though he is thoroughly compassionate about Gollum, and he does this by drawing attention to the fact that Gollum has also been a Ring Bearer, that they have shared this burden, and that Frodo could one day be like Gollum. He plays on their sympathies. He has to do this as they simply would not see why Frodo would want to make practical use of Gollum's skill and knowledge; they would tell Frodo he had chosen the wrong person for the job, and Faramir may even kill Gollum.

Frodo can see something in Gollum that the others cannot, but whether it is something spiritual in nature I am not altogether convinced; I think that the way Frodo spoke in Gollum's presence reveals something much more hard edged about his relationship with him. Frodo knows that only Gollum has the knowledge of the secret way into Mordor, and so he has to 'recruit' him for that reason, not out of pity. He certainly remembers and takes heed of Gandalf's words, but whether he also 'sees' the possible outcome, I am not entirely convinced.

And alas, he is not quite as perceptive and clever as he thinks he might be, as Gollum hides a tremendous secret in planning to take them through Shelob's lair. Gollum does well to keep quiet when Frodo speaks to Faramir about the blindfolds; here are two very clever characters each trying to use the other under the influence of the ring.

I think this is rather more cynical an interpretation than the events bear, but no doubt we can agree to disagree. When I referred to Gandalf, I was thinking less of the wizard's statement about pity and more about his comment that Gollem might yet have an important role to play, although Gandalf could not then foresee it. This to me is Frodo's attitude towards Gollem, not that he sees something spiritual in the creature but that he has accepted the burden of including Gollem in the task he has accepted for himself. He submits to whatever fate is in store rather than knowing precisely what that fate is. A nonreligious "thy will be done" .

[Lalwendë]

Maybe it is a little cynical, but nevertheless, I do see that Frodo possesses the hard sense of determination which is also a feature of other characters such as Aragorn; neither will stoop to any low or orcish behaviour to achieve what they must do, but nevertheless, both accept what must be done and have determination.

So it went on, almost as unceasing as the waterfall, only interrupted by a faint noise of slavering and gurgling. Frodo shivered, listening with pity and disgust. He wished it would stop, and that he never need hear that voice again. Anborn was not far behind. He could creep back and ask him to get the huntsmen to shoot. They would probably get close enough, while Gollum was gorging and off his guard. Only one true shot, and Frodo would be rid of the miserable voice for ever. But no, Gollum had a claim on him now. The servant has a claim on the master for service, even service in fear. They would have foundered in the Dead Marshes but for Gollum. Frodo knew, too, somehow, quite clearly that Gandalf would not have wished it.

When Frodo is watching Gollum at the Forbidden Pool, he shows how he hates having to rely upon Gollum, and his justification for not allowing him to be killed lists his reasons. First is that Gollum is now his servant, second is that Gollum is useful, and thirdly is the memory of Gandalf's words. Yes, they are a consideration, but are one of several. Maybe those words are indeed the most insistent or important consideration to Frodo, yet they are overwhelmed in his mind by the practical ones (practical reasons others such as Sam will more readily accept).

I don't think that this would in any way detract from Frodo's character, he remains essentially good of course; in fact, I think such determination adds to his character. Frodo was not merely a sacrificial object, he willingly took on the task, just as Aragorn also accepted the role that had fallen to him.

[Bêthberry]

Lalwendë, perhaps what lies at our difference of interpretation is a way of viewing the nature of relationships in LotR. I don’t object at all to seeing “a hard determination” in either Frodo or Aragorn, but I do think that this passage from The Forbidden Pool should not be read within the context of a Machiavellian perspective of self-interest. It is not that Gollem is useful to Frodo, but that Frodo believes in the obligations of binding relationships in spite of what he would personally wish. Aragorn’s and Frodo’s actions belong to a world view where reciprocal and even ritual exchange marks the nature of human relationships.

In this view, there is a moral as well as material aspect to human community. You might almost say it is a living fabric of community to which their actions give being and purpose. Think back to Tolkien’s view of heroism in his essay on Maldon. There is a web of personal interconnection which holds this world view together. That is why it is possible to read of the destruction of the Ring and understand it as eucatastrophic rather than simply random or absurd.

Gollem is not a commodity which Frodo can get rid of however much he pleases. Of course Frodo has his private and personal feelings that Gollem is a millstone—this is part of the psychological reality of his characterization--but he moves beyond that. It is “He wished … But no.”

It is not a fragmented, dehumanized society. Nor is it a self-less, disinterested world. Tolkien’s world is one where obligations and interactions generate community and meaning. It provides a vision of embedded social action where one repays the grace done to oneself and initiates gracious actions on one’s own and where, entirely unexplicably, such transactions can generate a surplus of grace or worth far exceeding their own measure, even in the midst of actions which deny or belie that vision.