The Fall of the North Planning/Discussion Thread

[Nuranar]

From page 2 of the discussion:

In reference to Saurreg's comment that only 100 of the Rearguard are left:

Originally Posted by Nuranar

Point of information: If there's only about 100 fighting men left, how many civilians are there? And how many of these are councillors/courtiers/something to do with government?

Originally Posted by Kransha

There are more civilians than soldiers, but not much. The exact number is up to you or anyone else who cares to throw a number about, as long as its not too many (remember, a lot of the poorer civilians lived in the outermost sanctum of Fornost, which was completely destroyed, and many in the second level were slain. All courtiers and ministers save a few survived, though. There are probably 50 people who have ties to the King (courtiers, etc), but that's not definitive.

Originally Posted by Nuranar

And thanks for the answers, Kransha. So, there's around 100 military types, around 50 king-civilians, and, say, 75 plain civilians? I can work with that.

Those numbers for the civilians were estimates to help me in visualizing the situation. I reach them by a sort of mental algebra:

1. Kransha said there are more civilians than soldiers. Thus the Number of Civilians (X) must be greater than 100. So X > 100.
2. 50 out of the X are courtiers and so forth. Logically, the ordinary civilians would outnumber those. So the Number of Ordinary Civilians (X-50) > 50.
3. I arbitrarily chose (X-50) = 75. Therefore X = 125. (X-5) is significantly larger than the number of courtiers, and X is larger than the number of soldiers. Therefore X, total civilians, outnumber the soldiers, but not by much, as Kransha stipulated.

Keep in mind, these are round numbers - approximations only.

If we take Saurreg's estimate of only 50 soldiers left after the orc-fight, we're down to a total of 175 people, with the civilians now forming more than 70% of that. However, that's not calculating any civilian deaths along the way. Illness, poor and diminishing food, harsh weather, continuous travel and exertion, and accidents, just to name a few, should have killed a number of civilians - particularly young children, the weak/sick, wounded, &c. The cumulative nature of most of these factors will mean that more are likely to die. ALSO, these are far more likely to be plain civilians than courtiers. After a little consideration, I'd say we'll have lost a good 10-20 civilians, only a couple of them courtiers. This could easily be more, if accounted for by an outbreak of a specific illness. By specific, I mean something contagious and exacerbated by cold and weakness (influenza??), instead of simply lots of pneumonia.

How's that for trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious?

[Kransha]

Nuranar, it seems to me that you must have a Ph.D in trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious - you're very good at it. Of course, under these circumstances, such talent is a good thing.

Humbly, I step out of numerical controversy, Nuranar, Saurreg, and Osse seem to be handling the organization of the matter better than I ever could. Obviously the level of organization:disorganization is what is necessary, and confusion in the caverns is a must. Perhaps the real life confusion can be drawn upon to aid character confusion, but I digress. Soon enough, another series of entities altogether will arrive and [attempt to] set things straight. Dwarves are notoriously geometric, but centuries of isolation has left them a little loopy, so the Dunedain/Elves might do best to sort matters of combat and order out before the Dwarves arrive and upset the best laid plans of mice and men...not that John Stienbeck knew anything about crazy Dwarves.

I won't, however, intrude directly. The Dwarves are meant to be a bit of deus ex machina (yes, I am using unecessarily complicated explanations; so?) but not save the day. Their armor isn't shiny enough to do the job in proper fashion anyway. It does stand to reason that the Dunedain/Elves will not be able to take out all the trolls, but they can do what they can do. I'm not going to dictate what must happen in this encounter, even though I am going to plop my newly introduced dwatves into the picture in a few days, if possible.

[Nuranar]

Osse, I understand your explanation. Actually, a windy (that's WINE-dy) tunnel is the only mechanism I could come up with to explain how they bump into trolls, so that works fine. By the way, though, that'll be 7 men, 2 women, 1 boy (Brander), and the two little boys. It's unavoidable, since Renedwen has her son and I explicitly wrote Brander and Gilly into my post.

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Saurreg, I'm not sure I fully understand your proposal, but I think I get the gist of it. I think the simplest approach would be for you to modify this part of your post:

“I do not think so Lieutenant,” She replied as-a-matter-of-factly, “Neither Faerim nor I, or the rest of your people were harmed bodily. But this expired denizen of the dark might have caused some, unbearable mental anguish…”

Belegorn frowned, perplexed by the words of the sphinx. He was in no mood for word games and was about to question her again, when she pointed towards his back. Belegorn turned his head and saw two women huddled together with the rest of the refugees – Belegorn has ran pass them without noticing. The taller one was strikingly stunning but her face was drained of color and ghostly pale, her doe-like eyes were wide with fear and her delicate lips were trembling. The other woman was holding on to her and whispering constantly to the former; reassuring her no doubt, thought Belegorn.

Belegorn nodded in relief but the tense look did not leave his grave face. He turned back towards Erenor and Faerim, and resumed, “It is agreeable that no one is hurt. But we have other pressing issues at hand.”

Just to keep the women, Brander, and Gilly, out of it. Instead, perhaps Erenor can point out the cut web; it would be clear that someone had been there. Since the group's spread out, there's no way to know which one of them had done it.

The refugees you mention are the rest of Carthor's party, the ones who stayed at the storeroom. Because of the disorganization and confusion (And don't forget the darkness!) it makes sense for Belegorn not to realize that Carthor isn't where he should be. That leaves Belegorn's orders for Faerim, to lead the refugees and look for his father, perfectly reasonable.

The screams that sends Faerim and Erenor into action can perhaps be some of the refguees, frightened of the troll-sounds. Even though they probably don't know that they ARE trolls, they're perfectly capable of imagining terrifying monsters hiding in the shadows.

I hope I'm not missing anything... If not, I think that should resolve our confusion and will involve only one modification.

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So, we have this marching order at the beginning:

<-- [Elves, Faerim] <-- [Belegorn] <-- [Carthor]

And try this proposed new outline:

1. Most of Carthor's group stops to investigate a storeroom. Renedwen gets caught and rescued by Lissi. On their way back they meet up with Carthor and six men from his group. They head back to the rest of the group, which includes most of the civilian refugees, back at the storeroom.
2. The Elves and Faerim are well in front, and start back when they hear Renedwen and troll drums. They meet up with Belegorn's group. More screams are heard, and Faerim is jumped by a spider when he heads back.
3. Carthor, Lissi, Renedwen, the three boys, and the six men take the wrong turning on their way back to the storeroom. This wrong turn loops around and instead of taking them BACK, takes them FORWARD. Their lights go out and they run into the trolls.
4. The remainder of Carthor's group, mainly civilians, presumably wanders from the storeroom in a forward direction.
5. Erenor and Faerim kill the spider and are joined by Angóre, Belegorn, and the rest of the soldiers. The rest of the refugees are in sight, further back down the main tunnel. Belegorn orders Faerim to lead the women and the rest of the refugees into a side tunnel. Belegorn heads waaaay back up the tunnel, past the spider turn-off, lights a flaming barricade, and heads up another turnoff to divert the advancing trolls.

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Originally Posted by Osse

they come in towards the room from a long way off, in a curve - up behind the trolls, and now on the wrong side of Belegorn's fire wall. So... seven men and two women are trapped with who-knows-how-many trolls...

But in order for them to run into the trolls, the mistake tunnel must JOIN the main tunnel, forward of the spider turnoff and even farther forward of the storeroom. Since Carthor orders a retreat, that will send them BACK down the mistake tunnel - With troll pursuit? - and re-enter the main tunnel on the RIGHT side of the fire wall. So they shouldn't ever enter the main tunnel at all, and Belegorn will still be alone. Osse, if you want them to be trapped with Belegorn, I've a couple suggestions:

1. The mistake tunnel can join the main tunnel at a different angle, so when the group keep going in what seems to them the same direction, they're actually heading BACK up the main tunnel. Then they can come upon the trolls from the back. The retreat will send them once more FORWARD up the main tunnel, where even the vanguard haven't yet come up.
2. Specify that they enter into another, probably larger tunnel. If they keep going in the same direction, they will be going FORWARD, and can meet the trolls head-on. Thus, when Carthor orders the retreat, they'll go BACK up the tunnel, almost certainly missing the join with the mistake tunnel, and they'll eventually run into Belegorn's fire wall.

But probably you have a better idea.

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As far as the numbers go, Saurreg addresses the configuration of the groups pretty well. If you incorporate my suggestions about civilian casualties, and subtract the king's group as Saurreg proposes (all 45-50 courtiers and 20 soldiers [Surely even the king wouldn't take 30 of 50?]), we are left with these ROUGH estimates:

• 30 soldiers
• 60 civilians

Now, that's 90 people; divide into groups of 20, and you have 4.5 groups. Let's make that 4 groups with about 22 people each. If we maintain the soldier/civilian ratio, that will be about 7 soldiers for every 14 civilians. To my mind, that's still a very reasonable protector/protected ratio.

Or, if y'all prefer Belegorn to form only 2 groups: 90 people divides into 2 groups of 45 each. If they're identical groups, each will have 15 soldiers for 30 civilians. But one group will have both Belegorn and Carthor; to compensate the other group, which lacks a [named] leader, it will have more soldiers than the first. So let's say the first will have 10 soldiers and 35 civilians. The second will have 20 soldiers and 25 civilians.

Now to figure in our characters. Assuming "soldier" is used of the generic fighter, and not of our characters, we have among us 12 civilians: Belegorn, Carthor, Lissi, Faerim, Brander, Renedwen, son (sorry, I can't remember his name), Gilly, Erenor, Angóre, Bethiril, and Ereglin.

1. 7 soldiers/14 civilians - Remainder: 7 soldiers and 2 other civilians. In that case it would be perfectly reasonable for Lissi and Renedwen to be the only women in the group.
2. 10 soldiers/35 civilians - Remainder: 10 soldiers and 23 other civilians. There will likely be other women and children in that case.

Either way, our free soldiers are very few. In Option 2, if Carthor took 4 with him, that leaves a total of 6. Belegorn can scarcely have fewer than 5 with him. In that case, the rest of Carthor's group, at the rear of the line, will have 23 unprotected civilians. In Option 1, Belegorn will have only 3 men total - but there will only be two civilians left, with Carthor and his people missing.

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My Opinion as Far as Numbers Go

(I know, most of the numbers above are my opinions as well. Stay with me here.)

The ratio of soldier/civilian is going to stay the same, no matter how the groups are divided up. I think 1/2 is a decent proportion; not as great as it was after they left Fornost, of course, but it's not unreasonable. Thus I think group configuration depends more on size for safety, unity, and effectiveness.

I think that the small groups of 22 are quite small. If they run into any threat, 7 or 8 soldiers aren't going to go very far, regardless of how many they need to protect. For that matter, 10 soldiers are very few as well. If they have to protect 35 instead of 14, though, they're going to be stretched in-cred-i-bly thin.

In an underground maze like this, smaller groups are better for going unnoticed. Larger groups are better for more thorough investigation and for safety. I think their chances of being unnoticed are minute anyway - you can't expect civilians to not make noise - but at the same time, large groups are very unwieldy. Look what happened to us - we're all writing the thing and still we can't figure where everyone has gone! These tunnels are narrow; 45 people are going to stretch out a long way. You lose most of the advantage of size when you're liable to being chopped up into bits like that.

Now, as far as the other group(s) being leaderless: As I understand it, these soldiers are Rearguardsmen, experienced career soldiers. And they're good - they wouldn't have survived this long if they weren't. Even though none of them have been named, I would think that there are still other officers among them; even if not, all Belegorn needs to do is appoint a leader or two. (He ought to know his men well enough to do that, I think.) The point is that they'll do fine without being compensated by so many extra.

So I propose 3 groups with equivalent configuration: 3 groups of 30, 10 soldiers to 20 civilians. Subtract our 12 characters, and we're left with 8 unnamed civilians. 30 people is definitely on the small side, but it ought to be easier to supervise, and it's large enough for reasonable defense if attacked.

Without all the fancy calculations, it still comes down that we need a rough idea of how many soldiers and how many civilians are in this group with us. I suggest 30 total, with 10 soldiers, first because I think it's reasonable when the calculations are made, but second because it's still a good number for this sort of expedition. If I were to pick a number out of the air, I think 30 would still be a good number.

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I think I need to stop now. This puts my previous efforts to shame!

Originally Posted by Kransha

Obviously the level of organization:disorganization is what is necessary, and confusion in the caverns is a must. Perhaps the real life confusion can be drawn upon to aid character confusion, but I digress.

Yes, I thought it ironic how hard we're working to straighten out confusion when confusion in the tunnels is really what we want. Still, I think there's a big difference between chronological and spatial confusion and character and situational confusion! I used to point out to my brothers that, as in the case of Lou Costello, it takes someone really smart to pretend to be stupid and make it both good and funny. I think this is a parallel situation: We want confusion, but we want the characters to be confused. We don't want the reader to be confused when characters jump around in time and space without explanation! I think a bit of order behind the scenes helps to create apparent disorder on the stage.

Osse and Saurreg, I've addressed several specific questions/issues to you, and I'd appreciate your input. And everyone else, please share your opinions, especially about numbers! I'm just trying to help.

[Saurreg]

I like the suggestions stated and have edited my save according.

The context of the post still stays but Lissi, Renedwen, Brander and the two tots are no longer mentioned. Infact Belegorn now does not know who the victim/s is/are.

[Osse]

I was under the impression that Belegorn made his firewall in the main tunnel, that Carthor's small, lost group were turning into... that would make more sense as the trolls are being stopped from going further up this main route - stopped from heading towards the main body of refugees.

I will reread everyone's posts and try to get mine to conform, without changing the fact that Carthor, two women and three children are all stuck with some trolls.

[Saurreg]

Hehe Firewall, good one. Perhaps the incendiary was prepared by a chemist of the Norton? Hehehe.

Osse, you are right. The firewall was created in the main corridor to seperate the majority of the refugees from the trolls. At this point of time Belegorn had no idea that by creating this barrier, he had not only sealed himself and the trolls on one side, but Carthor and company also.

Hope that helps.

[Osse]

Trying the stop the trolls from hacking their way through... harf harf.

Just finished re-reading/ rewriting... i don't think there is anything that clashes anymore... i have put a little bit in about Brander and the boys though.