Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[Lush]

I pretty much assume that Aragorn and Arwen were getting it on way before the fall of Sauron. This goes for both books and movies; though I hesitated for some time as to whether or not my theory applied to the books, Tolkien being so stuffy in certain regards. But in the end, it made sense to me. Most Elves bond and mate for life; once the mate is chosen, a life-long commitment is usually the result. It makes sense why Aragorn and Arwen wouldn't want to make it public and official for a long time, the situation in the world being so volatile, but I think that in private they were as good as married.

I ultimately don't think it matters all that much, though. Tolkien didn't want to be too specific about the full nature of Aragorn and Arwen's relationship, neither did Peter Jackson. A lot of people see it differently, and I don't feel a burning need to prove my point to them. I think speculation is what makes the whole thing more fun.

alatar, you mentioned how background can affect interpretation, and I agree.

[Mithalwen]

Lush, I have to say I couldn't disagree more with you more on the books - there is so much textual evidence (in LOTR let alone in HoME and UT) and I think the love story loses its whole point is they were " de facto". However I have to get back to work so Iwon't go over all of it again.

I think your interpretation is more possible with the films because they don't go into the backstory so much and their scenes are much more open - however I still think it unlikely - epecially since Arwen sets out for the havens before the end.

[Eruanna]

I must confess that until this discussion I had not really given the state of Aragorn and Arwen's relationship much thought. On re-reading Appendix A, it's interesting to note that Tolkien gave it the title; 'Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. Was this a deliberate device? Are we invited to 'fill in the gaps' each according to his/her experience, as it were?

With regard to the scenes mentioned earlier. On the bridge we see them alone together for the first time. It is highly romantic, the two pairs of hands clasped, he strong and she demure. A clear image of courtly love, especially when accompanied by the lilting theme music.
In the later scene, Arwen's negligee type gown and Aragorn's open necked tunic, with his bootless feet on the couch/bed, seemed to suggest to me that it was 'afterwards'. It is a very peaceful scene and Arwen's speech and body language towards Aragorn are very tender and 'wife-like'. I thought that it was beautiful and showed that the two characters were very comfortable and at ease with one another. It was a refreshing change to see lovers portrayed in that way, without the usual gymnastics that seem to count as romance in films these days!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

With regard to the scenes mentioned earlier. On the bridge we see them alone together for the first time. It is highly romantic, the two pairs of hands clasped, he strong and she demure. A clear image of courtly love, especially when accompanied by the lilting theme music.
In the later scene, Arwen's negligee type gown and Aragorn's open necked tunic, with his bootless feet on the couch/bed, seemed to suggest to me that it was 'afterwards'. It is a very peaceful scene and Arwen's speech and body language towards Aragorn are very tender and 'wife-like'. I thought that it was beautiful and showed that the two characters were very comfortable and at ease with one another. It was a refreshing change to see lovers portrayed in that way, without the usual gymnastics that seem to count as romance in films these days!

Part of my original question was 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'

I would agree with your assessment of the scenes; however, being married more than just a few years, I would not consider my and my wife's life together to be considered fantasy romance. Don't people prefer to see something fantastic, whether it be 'gymnastics' between two buff bods or tear-extracting romance where the couple just have the most perfect conversations, words on their lips, meaningful looks, and remember every anniversary with a unique and well-thought out gift (hand-made, of course)?

[Lush]

Lush, I have to say I couldn't disagree more with you more on the books - there is so much textual evidence (in LOTR let alone in HoME and UT) and I think the love story loses its whole point is they were " de facto". However I have to get back to work so Iwon't go over all of it again.

That's cool. I'm mostly basing it on the relationship between Beren & Luthien, since I'm pretty much convinced that they did it right away. Not that it matters.

[Anguirel]

I'm with Lush on Beren and Luthien. I found the "slain by bliss and grief" passage rather more than you'd expect even from embracing the most beautiful thing in existence. Also it explains Luthien's later tenacity when Beren continually sets off without her. They are married already, in Elven terms.

Aragorn and Arwen, on the other hand...it could easily have happened in Lothlorien, when that mischievious match-maker Galadriel dolled Aragorn up. But in Aragorn's case, I doubt it somehow. Beren was under no promise to Thingol when he first met Luthien, and after his vow they always considered the option of running away and living in the wilderness together, as befits husband and wife. But Aragorn wouldn't break his promise to Elrond, or force Arwen to mortality prematurely; he'd wait till he was King of Gondor and Arnor.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think your interpretation is more possible with the films because they don't go into the backstory so much and their scenes are much more open - however I still think it unlikely - epecially since Arwen sets out for the havens before the end.

Mithalwen makes a good point. In the films we see Arwen heading for the boat to Valinor, after the scene where they have supposedly slept together. Now if we take Tolkien's statements about Elves to be what we should base our assumptions on, then if they had slept together, Arwen would be Aragorn's wife and hence a mortal, so she would not be allowed to leave for Valinor.

The act of marriage for an Elf is to sleep with their partner. Once that is done then they are married for eternity. I don't know if this holds for mortals, but if one half of the partnership is Elf then it must mean they become married at that point. So for Elves, there is simply no possibility of sex outside marriage. The text can indeed often be suggestive, but the rules must always be considered. In the case of Beren and Luthien, if they had slept together then what would be the point of Thingol's trickery? It would all be in vain from his point of view.

When we read the text where it is suggestive of sex and interpret it that way, then that is our own ideas being laid onto it. If it is not a possibility according to Tolkien then the reality is that they probably did little more than holding hands. We might find it impossible to hold out for so long, but why should the people in Arda? Elves have all the time in the world to do whatever they wish, and to hold out for a few more months/years will probably seem like no time at all to them. Though how it must feel to the mortal in the partnership I don't know! Perhaps this explains why men such as Beren and Aragorn have such a sense of determination, they are trying to distract themselves?

Of course, this all depends upon whether we ought to apply Tolkien's rules to PJ's films. But if we do not, then much of what is heart-wrenching about Aragorn and Arwen's tale would become redundant anyway.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

That's cool. I'm mostly basing it on the relationship between Beren & Luthien, since I'm pretty much convinced that they did it right away. Not that it matters.

Ah well so am I and in HoME Tolkien categorically states that they didn't!!! But I posted in Ooh la la so again I won't repeat!.. But going on the silmarilion text ... our modern eyes read a lot more into some things so I do understand why it is read that way - I mean the mores re pre-marital sex have just about completely reversed - when Tolkien was a young man, couples were expected to wait and a nos jours ..... Oh Lal as usual has said it so much better!

Personally the literary did they /didn't they that has always intrigues me was Dorothea and Mr Casaubon in Middlemarch ...

[Eruanna]

Originally posted by Alatar:
however, being married more than just a few years, I would not consider my and my wife's life together to be considered fantasy romance. Don't people prefer to see something fantastic, whether it be 'gymnastics' between two buff bods or tear-extracting romance where the couple just have the most perfect conversations, words on their lips, meaningful looks, and remember every anniversary with a unique and well-thought out gift (hand-made, of course)?

I think that most people would prefer the fantasy version. After all, we want to be entertained or lifted out of our more ordinary lives for a few hours.
I too have been married for more than a few years. So long, in fact that just remembering the anniversary is enough, let alone the unique, hand-made gift

As to that part of your original question, 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'
I would say yes, it is quite fitting. These are not everyday, mundane characters. Arwen is a sort of 'Holy Grail' of womanhood, she is not to be won without the greatest hardship and sacrifice. That is what makes their eventual wedding so satisfying.
I must say that the more I read of Elven custom and lore, the more I agree with Lalwendë and Mithalwen that Aragorn and Arwen would have been considered already married if they had 'done the deed'. This is definitely a case of PJ muddying the waters with his having Arwen set off for the Havens.