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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 | |||||
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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‘This thing all things devours...’
I suppose Shelob & what she symbolises has been discussed so often that the subject is almost redundant. She is the ‘last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world’. In fact, in the early drafts Shelob was called ‘Ungoliant’. Like Ungoliant she consumes light itself & vomits out darkness. In fact, it seems it is not only light, but time, sound & memory that she eats. Quote:
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As to the Star-glass itself, I was struck by a few things: In the darkness of Shelob’s Lair Sam first thinks of the Barrow & Tom Bombadil, & wishes Tom was nearby. It is at this point that he recalls Galadriel’s Gift to Frodo. I wonder if Tom played some part in this remembrance of the Golden Wood. Its odd that Sam ‘invokes’ Tom & then suddenly remembers the one thing that can aid himself & his Master - the Star-glass. This makes me wonder about the ‘relationship’ of Tom & Galadriel. Is it simply a matter of Sam thinking of one supernatural helper & being reminded of another, or is there something more going on? Another couple of passages that got me thinking: Quote:
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This ‘Light’ is powerfully symbolic - the Light itself is of ‘Heavenly’ or Divine origin, but it has been given physical form by a woman & I can’t help wondering if this is one of those ‘consciously so in the revision’ moments Tolkien mentioned in his letter. |
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#2 | |
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Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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So it seems to me that it's not wishing for Tom, so much as wishing. Tom would have no power in Shelob's Lair; his land is far away. But Galadriel's gift of the light of the star of Earendil, that does have power in Shelob's Lair. I think that Tolkien uses the logic of the story here - what would Sam be reminded of? Looking at his sword, he'd be reminded of the similarly black and evil place where the sword came from. Sam being the simple hobbit he is, he'd think of Tom, and being hopeful against all reason, or barring hope, being stubborn in the face of overwhelming adversity, he'd wish for the best good he could think of at the moment. Within the logic of the story, Manwe's eye is always watching, and Varda's ear is always listening, and they know as well as does Elrond that the quest's hope stands upon a knife-edge, and Varda hears Sam's wish for the best good, and supplies to his mind that which would really be the best good right there right then. Of course, very little of that is in the text, but all of it, or something like it, was likely in Tolkien's mind. I could be all wet, but maybe this is how Tolkien got from the dire threat of Shelob and the sword in Sam's hand, to the light of the phial of Galadriel. Just a guess. |
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#3 | ||
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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An interesting connection just occured to me regarding Frodo's cry as he holds up the Star-glass:
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Frodo speaks the words that would, millenia later & in another language, inspire Tolkien himself to 'rediscover' England's lost mythology! I don't know if this was another 'consciously so in the revision' moment, but certainly the connection between the 'light' which sprang into being in Tolkien's mind at his discovery of those words & the Light which sprang from the Starglass in Frodo's hand is both interesting &, to me, quite moving. |
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#4 |
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Dead Serious
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I love this chapter! After most of Book IV, it is a chapter of ACTION! Yes, there is lots of movement in the previous chapters, certainly there is drama and danger, but this is the first chapter that had what one can see turned into an action sequence in a movie. This chapter is very immediate and real, I find, as a result. You are a lot closer as Sam and Frodo battle Gollum and Shelob than as they wander through Ithilien.
We get to see Sam at his most heroic in this chapter, fighting Gollum and then rushing- right at the end of the chapter, to aid his master who he has been separated from. We thus end the chapter on a suspenseful, adrenaline-filled note. I also like the chapter for its greater Elvish overtones. One of the things I love about The Lord of the Rings is the Elvish language. I'm too lazy and non-inclined to learn it, but I love reading it. For the first and only time in Book IV, we get a touch of Elvish: Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima! I love that line! We also get a much greater touch the mysterious/magical in this chapter, mainly through the vial, but also through the mythic-like Shelob, who feels like a direct transplant from the Lay of Leithian. The first time I read this chapter, I couldn't wait to move on and see Sam rescue Frodo. Boy was I in for a surprise!
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#5 |
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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There will be a slight delay in the opening of the next chapter by chapter discussion thread (for "The Choices of Master Samwise"). Please continue discussing the current chapter, "Shelob's Lair," or review any of the previous chapter discussions.
Thanks for your patience! Estelyn will return shortly with the new thread introduction. Bęthberry
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#6 | ||
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Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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Though we as readers learn not only what it is lurking in those dark tunnels, but some important facts regarding that presence, Frodo and Sam discover the true shape of Shelob only very late in the chapter. And although their horror is tangible, they could not describe accurately what it was that stalked them until the last few pages…it was up until then simply something foul and menacing, something with many eyes.
Having read about Ungoliant fairly recently in the Silm. the similar attributes of a ‘black hole’ sort of darkness and gluttony ascribed to both was striking. But many thanks to davem for pointing out the dissimilarity regarding the two in their reaction to the light of Silmarils. It is something to mull over along with the cries of the Elves and other references to history. But another curious thing to me was that Tolkien writes that Sméagol/Gollum had bowed down and worshipped Shelob. I understand why Gollum might be mentioned but why is Sméagol named here? Is this a hint about his basic nature? Quote:
Another facet that adds to the disturbing mood of the chapter is the “fey mood” Sam feels his master is in, after freeing himself of the tunnel. Sam does seem the only grounded thing in the whole surreal episode, and by the end he also seems so dreadfully alone. Quote:
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#7 | |||
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Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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This chapter is full of suspense - the description of the tunnel is incredibly creepy and full of foreboding. The utter darkness and the stench are something which of course couldn't be conveyed to the film and I think the scene is much more effectful in the book. It reminds me somehow of a "ghost-train" or "tunnel of horror" at a fun fair, especially the unseen things brushing their heads and hands in the dark.
I note that in the tunnel, Frodo is the one who is more resolute and couragious. Quote:
But I just love this scene: (probably now even more, because it is such a contrast to the helpless movie-Frodo...)Quote:
Btw It took me a heck of a time to find out what "ancalima" means! Now I know more, and Davem's post about this is fascinating! Apparently Sting shines blue also in Shelob's presence - not only that of orcs! Quote:
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! Last edited by Guinevere; 05-21-2005 at 02:26 PM. Reason: found the translation of a word now |
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