more than 9?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

However...I was under the impression that the Seven and the Nine were intrinsically identical in their effects. The difference was extrinsic, in that men were utterly corrupted as the twist in their power, and Dwarves made covetous as the twist in their wealth. Working on this principle, one of the Seven given to a man ought to have the same properties as one of the Nine given to a man. Am I correct?

Was going to say 'disagree,' but started to think about it a bit...

As Celebrimbor and Annatar have not yet returned my calls, I'll speculate on the Rings specificity. The Seven and Nine, as far as we know, were never worn by people of different races (races referring to Elves, Dwarves, Men, Hobbits, etc), so there is no information there. Two of the Three, as far as we know, were worn by Elves exclusively. Narya was worn by both Cirdan and Gandalf, and so we have an example where the same ring imparted the same power to wearers of different races.

The One, which is a bit different than the others, was worn by a Maia, a Man and three hobbits. To each power was given, yet only in accord to each's innate ability. Don't think that the Ring made Sauron invisible, but this ability was given to the other four bearers. Hobbits and Men could be subsets of the same species/race, and so not sure how much information we get here.

Not even going to mention Bombadil...

So based on this scant evidence I would assume that a dwarven ring on the hand of a man would ignite a fierce desire for gold. A human ring on the hand of a dwarf would allow for some 'power' yet I don't think that a dwarf would be able to (1) use it to dominate the wills of other dwarves or (2) become a wraith. It may open the dwarf to suggestion by the bearer of the One, and turn the dwarf to the dark side, but I don't think that you would get a dwarven Nazgul (which is a good thing as they would look silly atop black horses...).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I disagree with the idea that the Rings of Power were race-specific when they were forged. I checked out "Of the Rings of Power" in the Sil, and find no mention of differences in their making; only when Sauron/Annatar distributed them did they work on the recipients. Here are some of the pertinent quotes:

In those days the [Elven] smiths... made Rings of Power.

Now the Elves made many rings...

[Sauron] demanded that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.

The chapter goes on to tell of the different corruption of Dwarves and Men, and all that is said (way too much to quote here) shows that the difference was in the recipients, not the rings themselves. So basically, that backs up what Anguirel said, and I agree.

[alatar]

Thanks for the quotation. It's always helpful to have the source material presented.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I disagree with the idea that the Rings of Power were race-specific when they were forged. I checked out "Of the Rings of Power" in the Sil, and find no mention of differences in their making; only when Sauron/Annatar distributed them did they work on the recipients.

Would you say that the rings had different innate powers? Were the Seven all alike or at least similar? Were the sixteen (Nine human and Seven dwarven) all alike?

Or did Sauron, having a big bag of rings, either select specfic sets that would work best with specific races or, when creating them (by hand or by proxy), did he have specific races in mind? Did he know what the common desire of each race (wealth, power, beauty, etc) was and so created rings that would fulfill the same, thus being more attractive bait to the potential addict?

Though he had no hand in making the Three, we know that these were (1) different from each other and (2) attractive to the elves. Where the Seven and Nine as different within each set? I thought that somewhere it states that the seven hoards of the dwarves all had a ring at its beginning, and so I would assume that these were all similar.

Would men, using the same Three, become Nazgul? It's hard for me to see that they would as I always think of the Three as good. And would the elves be attracted to the rings of the dwarves?

I don't think that Sauron, who weighs all things to something or other (or some quote that I can't remember), allowed chance to distribute the rings of power.

[Anguirel]

You answer some of your own questions. The Three are not of Sauron's making, and so would not "wraithify" (it's a word now!) the bearer.

I expect the Nine and Seven (which are made with Sauron's aid and are a different case) would look aesthetically different from each other, and perhaps have different floklore surrounding their properties and origins. However, the sets of the Seven and Nine would not differ from each other apart from the general differences between each ring. As Estelyn rightly points out, they all come under the many rings crafted by Elves (insert "and Annatar".)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You answer some of your own questions. The Three are not of Sauron's making, and so would not "wraithify" (it's a word now!) the bearer.

It's a bad habit - answering my own questions...too many voices in the head. And wraithify works for me. Can't wait to hear my kids state that,"Daddy, Joey keeps wraithifying me..."

I expect the Nine and Seven (which are made with Sauron's aid and are a different case) would look aesthetically different from each other, and perhaps have different floklore surrounding their properties and origins. However, the sets of the Seven and Nine would not differ from each other apart from the general differences between each ring. As Estelyn rightly points out, they all come under the many rings crafted by Elves (insert "and Annatar".)

Was the 'Annatar & Elves Ring shop' an assembly line? I can see, in making the Seven, that each was another attempt at making a specific ring-type, each better than the one before at whatever the specific intent was for that ring set.

And you gotta hand to Annatar - he had the elves making jewelry for the dwarves - what a salesman!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by alatar

...you gotta hand to Annatar - he had the elves making jewelry for the dwarves - what a salesman!

We cross-posted, alatar - from the context, I would disagree with your conclusion. The Elves were not making jewelry for the Dwarves, they were making it for themselves!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

And wraithify works for me.

Tecchnically, it should be enwraith.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

We cross-posted, alatar - from the context, I would disagree with your conclusion. The Elves were not making jewelry for the Dwarves, they were making it for themselves!

That's what they thought too! But surely Annatar influenced the making of the Seven, which turned out to be useful to him. Seven large hoards of gold to attract seven large greedy dragons, mistrust/discord within and between different clans, secrecy, Balin (you gotta feed Balrogs somehow), etc.

And I'm going to go with wraitherize along with the new BD "I got wraitherized at the Barrow-Downs" clothing line. Maybe enwraithed is the correct word and that makes more sense to my British cousins, but this is 'Merica.

But to be serious for a moment, I guess that the elves made all of the rings, lesser and greater, for some purpose. Assume that all rings, excluding the One, were somewhat identical in purpose. What was that? What were the Elves, with or without Annatar's influence, trying to achieve? Why were these rings so perilous to all folk (even, I assume, to the elves with the exception of the Three)? Was that strictly due to Annatar? In todayspeak, did Annatar encode a backdoor into each ring that allowed him to slip some corruptive influence in?

Sorry, but as always, more questions.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The more I think about the Sil passages I quoted, the more I'm convinced that the Rings of Power were all originally made by the Elves for themselves! I find no indication that they intended them for other races, and no reference to others having them before Sauron "collected" and distributed them.

Sauron first intended to use the Elven rings (all of them) to control the Elves.

But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught.

Giving the Rings to Men and Dwarves was apparently Plan B, after Plan A had failed.

The only differences mentioned about the various rings are: the Three which were saved by the Elves were the last that they had made; they had the greatest powers; Sauron had no part in their making and never even touched them. Other than that, I find no textual evidence for variations in the kind of corruption that the other rings would cause. We do read about "lesser rings", so I would assume that there were various degrees of strength to them. However, I see no indication that the sixteen major rings differed in any way.

It would be interesting to know what Sauron did with the Dwarven rings he recovered - their exact number is not told here. Why didn't he put them to use? Was it too late, perhaps happening after he had lost the One? It doesn't seem like that would be the case. Why would he let an opportunity to enslave new subjects pass by?