more than 9?

[alatar]

Thanks for the quotation. It's always helpful to have the source material presented.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I disagree with the idea that the Rings of Power were race-specific when they were forged. I checked out "Of the Rings of Power" in the Sil, and find no mention of differences in their making; only when Sauron/Annatar distributed them did they work on the recipients.

Would you say that the rings had different innate powers? Were the Seven all alike or at least similar? Were the sixteen (Nine human and Seven dwarven) all alike?

Or did Sauron, having a big bag of rings, either select specfic sets that would work best with specific races or, when creating them (by hand or by proxy), did he have specific races in mind? Did he know what the common desire of each race (wealth, power, beauty, etc) was and so created rings that would fulfill the same, thus being more attractive bait to the potential addict?

Though he had no hand in making the Three, we know that these were (1) different from each other and (2) attractive to the elves. Where the Seven and Nine as different within each set? I thought that somewhere it states that the seven hoards of the dwarves all had a ring at its beginning, and so I would assume that these were all similar.

Would men, using the same Three, become Nazgul? It's hard for me to see that they would as I always think of the Three as good. And would the elves be attracted to the rings of the dwarves?

I don't think that Sauron, who weighs all things to something or other (or some quote that I can't remember), allowed chance to distribute the rings of power.

[Anguirel]

You answer some of your own questions. The Three are not of Sauron's making, and so would not "wraithify" (it's a word now!) the bearer.

I expect the Nine and Seven (which are made with Sauron's aid and are a different case) would look aesthetically different from each other, and perhaps have different floklore surrounding their properties and origins. However, the sets of the Seven and Nine would not differ from each other apart from the general differences between each ring. As Estelyn rightly points out, they all come under the many rings crafted by Elves (insert "and Annatar".)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You answer some of your own questions. The Three are not of Sauron's making, and so would not "wraithify" (it's a word now!) the bearer.

It's a bad habit - answering my own questions...too many voices in the head. And wraithify works for me. Can't wait to hear my kids state that,"Daddy, Joey keeps wraithifying me..."

I expect the Nine and Seven (which are made with Sauron's aid and are a different case) would look aesthetically different from each other, and perhaps have different floklore surrounding their properties and origins. However, the sets of the Seven and Nine would not differ from each other apart from the general differences between each ring. As Estelyn rightly points out, they all come under the many rings crafted by Elves (insert "and Annatar".)

Was the 'Annatar & Elves Ring shop' an assembly line? I can see, in making the Seven, that each was another attempt at making a specific ring-type, each better than the one before at whatever the specific intent was for that ring set.

And you gotta hand to Annatar - he had the elves making jewelry for the dwarves - what a salesman!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by alatar

...you gotta hand to Annatar - he had the elves making jewelry for the dwarves - what a salesman!

We cross-posted, alatar - from the context, I would disagree with your conclusion. The Elves were not making jewelry for the Dwarves, they were making it for themselves!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

And wraithify works for me.

Tecchnically, it should be enwraith.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

We cross-posted, alatar - from the context, I would disagree with your conclusion. The Elves were not making jewelry for the Dwarves, they were making it for themselves!

That's what they thought too! But surely Annatar influenced the making of the Seven, which turned out to be useful to him. Seven large hoards of gold to attract seven large greedy dragons, mistrust/discord within and between different clans, secrecy, Balin (you gotta feed Balrogs somehow), etc.

And I'm going to go with wraitherize along with the new BD "I got wraitherized at the Barrow-Downs" clothing line. Maybe enwraithed is the correct word and that makes more sense to my British cousins, but this is 'Merica.

But to be serious for a moment, I guess that the elves made all of the rings, lesser and greater, for some purpose. Assume that all rings, excluding the One, were somewhat identical in purpose. What was that? What were the Elves, with or without Annatar's influence, trying to achieve? Why were these rings so perilous to all folk (even, I assume, to the elves with the exception of the Three)? Was that strictly due to Annatar? In todayspeak, did Annatar encode a backdoor into each ring that allowed him to slip some corruptive influence in?

Sorry, but as always, more questions.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Rather than offer my own opinion, I'd again like to draw on Tolkien's text to deduce answers to those questions of yours, alatar.

Let me start with your "making of the Seven" - as I said, I see no evidence that the Seven or Nine were made with a specific number, race, or purpose in mind, nor even that they were separate. It would seem to me that Sauron divided them arbitrarily; they may have been the sixteen most powerful - we don't know what other rings there were, but since they play no role in the further story, we can neglect them.

As to the purpose for making the rings, it is not specifically mentioned, but from the context, this is what I assume. Here are Sauron/Annatar's words which precede the making of the rings:

...wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa... ...I perceive that you love this Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labour together for its enrichment, and for the raising of all the Elven-kindreds that wander here untaught to the height of that power and knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?

The passage goes on to say that the Elves received his counsel gladly,

...for in that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works. ...they desired both to stay in Middle-earth, which indeed they loved, and yet to enjoy the bliss of those that had departed.

In other words, the Elves wanted to have their cake and eat it too! However, their motivation was positive. They wanted the power to do good in Middle-earth, perhaps even to negate some of the evil Melkor had done. So while some reasons were a bit selfish, the general idea was not necessarily so.

Whether Annatar slipped a chink into all of the rings in order to get his "virus" in there later cannot be told from the text, though it might be possible. That would not entirely account for his influence on the Three, which he did not make but which were forged with the knowledge he had imparted to the Elven smiths. However, it is quite clear that the rings themselves would not have had that effect on their bearers without his influence. It starts with the fact we already know:

...secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.

Later on, when he has regained all but the Three, we read:

...all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them.

It would be interesting to speculate on what would have happened if the Rings of Power could have been used by the Elves without Sauron's curruption! Would the desire to make Middle-earth like Valinor have caused regression instead of progress, like we see in Galadriel's realm?

[Eruanna]

I agree that the Elves made the rings for themselves. Their purpose seems to have been for good. Elrond says:

"The Three were not made ... as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained."

'Preserve all things unstained' this seems to be the crux of the matter. To keep Middle-earth stable and unchanged. Estelyn's question is an interesting one. What may have happened if the Elves had been able to keep their rings? A society that does not progress will stagnate and die.

I don't agree, however that the Seven and the Nine were the most powerful of the rings. Sauron had already gained possession of the Nine when he captured Celebrimbor and tortured him into revealing the whereabouts of the remaining rings.

Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three." Unfinished Tales : The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

These three rings are elementals, of sorts, and certainly seem to be regarded, by the Elves at least, as more powerful than the others. Or perhaps I am reading too much into this and it is simply the fact that the Three were untainted by Sauron that makes them so special to the Elves.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The more I think about the Sil passages I quoted, the more I'm convinced that the Rings of Power were all originally made by the Elves for themselves! I find no indication that they intended them for other races, and no reference to others having them before Sauron "collected" and distributed them.

Sauron first intended to use the Elven rings (all of them) to control the Elves.

But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught.

Giving the Rings to Men and Dwarves was apparently Plan B, after Plan A had failed.

The only differences mentioned about the various rings are: the Three which were saved by the Elves were the last that they had made; they had the greatest powers; Sauron had no part in their making and never even touched them. Other than that, I find no textual evidence for variations in the kind of corruption that the other rings would cause. We do read about "lesser rings", so I would assume that there were various degrees of strength to them. However, I see no indication that the sixteen major rings differed in any way.

It would be interesting to know what Sauron did with the Dwarven rings he recovered - their exact number is not told here. Why didn't he put them to use? Was it too late, perhaps happening after he had lost the One? It doesn't seem like that would be the case. Why would he let an opportunity to enslave new subjects pass by?