Gandalf: the Unilateral Coalition Builder

[Eruanna]

Good points Celuien and davem. It must surely follow then, that Gandalf's humility and 'submission to the mission' (sounds like a rap!) was the very reason that he was chosen to be a ring bearer. Another reason to incur Saruman's jealousy!
That, actually, is something that I've always wondered about. It's clear from the chapter in UT on The Istari, that Saruman knew that Gandalf had a ring of power. So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

That, actually, is something that I've always wondered about. It's clear from the chapter in UT on The Istari, that Saruman knew that Gandalf had a ring of power. So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

Me too.Does anyone know how easy it would be to take a Ring of Power from someone? Would it just be a matter of knocking them unconscious & pulling it off their finger? Would Saruman have risked trying to take the Ring by force? Wouldn't Gandalf have fought back in desperation? We know that if he had to he could defeat a Balrog. Its one thing to subdue & imprison him, because I suspect that neither of them unleashed their full powers in that confrontation, but I think that Gandalf decided that discretion was the better part of valour & let Saruman have that one so he could gain time to make other plans. Perhaps Saruman knew that if he tried to take the Ring from him Gandalf would have gone the whole hog, even if that meant one or both of them ending up dead.

Of course, I'm writing this off the top of my head & I may be totally wrong....

[Lalwendë]

I think that Saruman genuinely believed he could get Gandalf 'on side', and that he was somewhat taken unawares when Gandalf challenged his behaviour. Saruman had become so convinced that he was taking the right path, that he had found a solution to the problem he was trying to solve that he became blinded to what was going an around him, as seen in his surprise at the actions of the Ents.

Which leads me on to what I was going to say...

The difference between Gandalf and Saruman provides an important lesson in Tolkien's world. Gandalf has entered into service while Saruman seeks power. Drawing an analogy from something I know about myself, Gandalf behaves as a civil servant ought to, accepting a role and carrying out the orders from above that he is given, without bringing his own agenda to what he does. He acts without prejudice. Saruman on the other hand exploits the position he has been given. Instead of doing what he has been instructed to do, he goes beyond his brief and in so doing, acts upon his own agenda.

Gandalf in this respect is similar to Frodo, who also accepts a task he is given and enters into service. Both display behaviour which defines the word.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

I'm thinking - and I could be wrong - that this is another manifestation of Saruman's pride. Yes, it hurt him and made him jealous to know that people in Middle Earth (at least Cirdan, and the rest of the White Council) trust Gandalf more than him (ouch! a double blow!), but I guess he was confident that his job could be done without the ring.

[Boromir88]

So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

Could it be as simple as the ring being invisible while on it's bearers hands? We see in the Mirror of Galadriel that Sam does not see Galadriel's ring on her finger, but Frodo does for he is the bearer of the one. Could it be that Gandalf's ring was also invisible on his finger, and that Saruman just forgot Gandalf even had a ring?

I wonder if another factor could be that Saruman made his own ring of power. While there is not proof that the ring ever did anything for him and it seemed like a failed attempt. He obviously kept it on his finger for some purpose.

[Eruanna]

Could it be that Gandalf's ring was also invisible on his finger, and that Saruman just forgot Gandalf even had a ring?

I don't think that Saruman would forget any of the perceived slights against him.
However, thanks for reminding me that Saruman made his own ring. As you say Boromir there's no evidence that it did anything for him, but it does illustrate his immense knowledge of the Rings of Power and ringcraft in general.

I was still thinking about the question and I wonder if perhaps Saruman didn't try to take Gandalf's ring because he had no need of it?
Gandalf's ring has the power to enhance his abilities to influence the hearts and minds of others. Saruman, even without a Ring of Power, already possesses the ability to cloud minds and influence people, mainly through the use of his voice; as we see with Theoden and Treebeard for instance.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wonder if another factor could be that Saruman made his own ring of power. While there is not proof that the ring ever did anything for him and it seemed like a failed attempt. He obviously kept it on his finger for some purpose.

Originally Posted by Eruanna

I was still thinking about the question and I wonder if perhaps Saruman didn't try to take Gandalf's ring because he had no need of it?

That's a very good point, it tallies with other things about Saruman. If he was prepared to go his own way in trying to break the Light, and become Saruman of many colours, then why should he not also seek to make his own ring of power? And as he seemed to be thoroughly convinced that his renegade way was the right way, then why wouldn't he also assume that the ring he created was better than anything Gandalf possessed?